The Nature of Ghosts

[George-ananda]

why i completely discount unverifiable personal experiences, mine included/especially

How can one 'verify' a spontaneous personal experience like an alleged ghost encounter? I think the serious paranormal researchers do study things like quantity, quality and consistency of all anecdotal events. I think they can tell us quite a bit about ghostly phenomena. You can ignore it all for lack of 'verification' but I think that impoverishes what you can know about the universe and heads you towards scientism.

 

[Iti oj]

How can one 'verify' a spontaneous personal experience like an alleged ghost encounter? I think the serious paranormal researchers do study things like quantity, quality and consistency of all anecdotal events. I think they can tell us quite a bit about ghostly phenomena. You can ignore it all for lack of 'verification' but I think that impoverishes what you can know about the universe and heads you towards scientism.

i don't ignore it, i interpret it differently and draw different conclusions.

 

[rocala]

I think that if ghosts exist there are more than one kind. One type, the classic 'grey lady' kind could well be some form of visual echo. Others which frequently do not involve sightings but the moving of objects and sometimes sounds seems to be a very different matter.

 

[ak.yonathan]

I think that if ghosts exist there are more than one kind. One type, the classic 'grey lady' kind could well be some form of visual echo. Others which frequently do not involve sightings but the moving of objects and sometimes sounds seems to be a very different matter.

I don't think that everything that you've said are actually ghosts. Some might in fact be mean spirits, worse than devils.

 

[Father Heathen]

While there may be incorporeal entities, anything regarding their nature is presumption and speculation without a large body of evidence. The paranormal needs to be approached objectively rather than trying to shoehorn what we might experience and observe within the context of preexisting mythos.

 

[George-ananda]

Why there may be incorporeal entities, anything regarding their nature is presumption and speculation without a large body of evidence. The paranormal needs to be approached objectively rather than trying to shoehorn what we might experience and observe within the context of preexisting mythos.

I agree, but I do think there are experts in this field that do study objectively and can tell us a lot about these phenomena.

 

[Father Heathen]

I agree, but I do think there are experts in this field that do study objectively and can tell us a lot about these phenomena.

The problem is that an "expert" in such a field could for example be someone who claims to be a "physic medium" yet whose knowledge is merely pulled from their ***. How do you verify their claims? Also, wouldn't there be a consensus among the experts to lend them credibility and validity? Many of them taint the whole process by trying to frame any findings within their personal belief systems and rituals, which is presumptuous.

 

[George-ananda]

The problem is that an "expert" in such a field could for example be like someone who claims to be a "physic medium" yet whose knowledge is merely pulled from their ***. How do you very their claims?

I was thinking less of psychics and more the studiers of the types of phenomena. I certainly recognize some individuals of higher intellectual quality than others and I am inclined to believe they know their stuff as well as it can be known. If you are looking for certain verification, that is not possible at least at this time.

 

[Sunstone]

When people have 'supernatural experiences' but do not believe this to be the actions of a dead persons soul, what other explanations are there?

Possibly hyper-active agent detection.

 

[Milton Platt]

Y

When people have 'supernatural experiences' but do not believe this to be the actions of a dead persons soul, what other explanations are there?

You are already labeling the experience with your question. First, scientifically validate the experience as supernatural. Then try and figure out what specific kind of supernatural cause it may be. Of course, once you are able to identify the cause specifically it now becomes a natural event....

 

[rocala]

Y


You are already labeling the experience with your question. First, scientifically validate the experience as supernatural. Then try and figure out what specific kind of supernatural cause it may be. Of course, once you are able to identify the cause specifically it now becomes a natural event....

Hi Milton, how do you think the average recipient of a 'supernatural experience' should go about this?

 

[Nefelie]

When people have 'supernatural experiences' but do not believe this to be the actions of a dead persons soul, what other explanations are there?

Depends on the experience. What did you see? Where did you see it? What was your psychology those days? How about your dreams, hopes, fears those days?... So many details to consider.

~~~

 

[Milton Platt]

Hi Milton, how do you think the average recipient of a 'supernatural experience' should go about this?

Since a supernatural cause is by far the most unlikely one, you look at the possible natural causes. Unless you can eliminate all possible natural causes, there is no reason to jump to a supernatural one.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

When people have 'supernatural experiences' but do not believe this to be the actions of a dead persons soul, what other explanations are there?

I think that's a great question~

Generally I don't believe in ghosts or tell stories- but like most people- I have had experiences that are inexplicable, that I tend to ignore, bury, because they have no practical use in daily life and I know how they would sound, and they carry all sorts of unsettling implications..

I wonder how many people similarly, play down these experiences rather than exaggerate them?

 

[George-ananda]

I think that's a great question~

Generally I don't believe in ghosts or tell stories- but like most people- I have had experiences that are inexplicable, that I tend to ignore, bury, because they have no practical use in daily life and I know how they would sound, and they carry all sorts of unsettling implications..

I wonder how many people similarly, play down these experiences rather than exaggerate them?

Perhaps I am an oddball on this, but I love hearing about and telling these type of stories. What do you find unsettling? Without such things I would hold an atheist-materialist worldview.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Perhaps I am an oddball on this, but I love hearing about and telling these type of stories. What do you find unsettling? Without such things I would hold an atheist-materialist worldview.

I probably mentioned it a couple of times on other threads, - again something I generally don't speak of in 'mixed company' because I know how it sounds- but one of the most profound personal experiences- was every clock stopping in the house when a family member died there. including watches and in cars.. very difficult to write off as chance. But though the other 3 of us were all forced to acknowledge what happened, we never spoke of it again, and remained skeptical about the paranormal.. So something like this happening.. is not particularly comforting.

What about you, is there a particular event that really struck you as evidence of paranormal?

 

[rocala]

Since a supernatural cause is by far the most unlikely one, you look at the possible natural causes. Unless you can eliminate all possible natural causes, there is no reason to jump to a supernatural one.

Sounds good but a little too simplistic for my taste and level of experience although I agree with the spirit (no pun intended) of your statement.
The usual phenomena are sightings, sounds and moving objects. Add to this, odours, possesion, channeling etc and the eliminination of "all possible natural causes" would require a vast amount of knowledge from such areas as the physical, biological and psychological sciences, Technology, engineering, construction, plus knowledge of local history and landscape. Add to this that it may not occur in your home, but a workplace or a place that you are visiting or staying in. Your enquiries may be highly impractical, unwelcome even career damaging. In plain language 'it is not going to happen'.

What I believe is possible is the utilization of efforts by interested people, therefore forums such as this are of use and value. Associations can be formed, data collected, stored and compared on a global basis. This I believe is the future of paranormal research.

 

[George-ananda]

- again something I generally don't speak of in 'mixed company' because I know how it sounds-

That thinking is what trying to get at with you. Do you think people might question your mental faculties? Or that it would bother people and if so, why?

but one of the most profound personal experiences- was every clock stopping in the house when a family member died there. including watches and in cars.. very difficult to write off as chance. But though the other 3 of us were all forced to acknowledge what happened, we never spoke of it again, and remained skeptical about the paranormal.. So something like this happening.. is not particularly comforting.

Why do you look at the paranormal as not particularly comforting? There is something in other people's thinking that I am missing and want to understand. Maybe the unknown is inherently scary? I personally find the paranormal fascinating.

What about you, is there a particular event that really struck you as evidence of paranormal?

Nothing dramatic really; shucks. Just a sense of being visited but never really any physical phenomena as in your story. But I have heard many fascinating stories. However I am more a student of the paranormal and it is not essential that something dramatic happens to me personally. I am fully convinced of the reality of multiple subfields of the paranormal.

 

[George-ananda]

Unless you can eliminate all possible natural causes,

Impossible in reality with spontaneous events that leave no trace. However enough quantity, quality and consistency of reports can get me to believe that things not understood by natural science is going on.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

That thinking is what trying to get at with you. Do you think people might question your mental faculties? Or that it would bother people and if so, why?

Yes, I think people are often likely to question your powers of critical thought, assume that you exaggerated a memory instead of suppressing it- I think there are some examples of that one this thread.

Why do you look at the paranormal as not particularly comforting? There is something in other people's thinking that I am missing and want to understand. Maybe the unknown is inherently scary? I personally find the paranormal fascinating.

I find it fascinating also,- academically I suppose- but I guess the unsettling part is an unavoidable gut feeling, what was the message in stopping clocks? It doesn't seem very positive..

Nothing dramatic really; shucks. Just a sense of being visited but never really any physical phenomena as in your story. But I have heard many fascinating stories. However I am more a student of the paranormal and it is not essential that something dramatic happens to me personally. I am fully convinced of the reality of multiple subfields of the paranormal.

Yes, the more people I talk to about it, I can't believe they are all making things up, it also seems logical- that an afterlife would not be something we could simply verify empirically - it has to be left a mystery to us to some extent?