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The new Athiest Humanities downfall?

Is the new Athiest Humanities downfall?

  • Yes it is!

    Votes: 4 11.4%
  • No it isn't!

    Votes: 18 51.4%
  • Yes but I will explain more.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No but I will explain more.

    Votes: 6 17.1%
  • I offer a different view.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The subject is more complex.

    Votes: 7 20.0%

  • Total voters
    35

epronovost

Well-Known Member
As an agnostic, I don't think of the Soviet position on religion as an atrocity but Marx is one of the people responsible for it. Was he not?

Absolutely not. Marx was long dead when the Soviet Union was formed The Soviet Union policy on organized religion has also changed a lot during the 80 years of its existence. The Soviet Union of Stalin was very different from the Soviet Union of Brezhnev. Marx himself was largely an utopian writer. He believed that has society progressed towards communism, religion's influence and religious beliefs would evaporate as it was no longer needed. He believed that the reason religion was still popular, organized and influential in moral and political discourse during his time was because religion was "the opium of the people" a balm to sooth the pain of oppression and inequalities under capitalist societies. He also saw religious organizations as desirous to maintain the status quo and hostile to any revolution against an oppressive system. Marx believed that the spread scientific materialism was necessary to defeat the influence of religion, remove the opium of the people and allow for the revolution to be achieved.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No one said they are OF NO RELEVANCE.

I'm tired of fighting with your constant jumps to the extremes. If you're this desperate to absolve them nothing I post will dissuade you, and frankly, I don't care. It's not about them, anyway.
But are they of relevance to points (3), (11) and (12)? If not they shouldn't have been mentioned in connection with them, or the poster of the OP should clarify they are not connected to those three points.

If they are innocent of any or all of those three points we should all be keen on absolving them - unless you are of those who believe in upholding charges against the innocent.

In my opinion.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
As in, " couldnt have said better, myself"?

I would not need to say it, to me God has already said that when humanity moves away from what God offers, it is that what will drive the collapse of the old world order, good news though as the elixer has been given.

"The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change."

Regards Tony
 

lukethethird

unknown member
No one is going to go through thousands of threads and comment to find and give you specific examples that you will only ignore and deny, anyway. Which, of course, you already know. Which is why you keep pretending that somehow it means something that no one is doing it.

If you really wanted those examples, you could go back through those thousands of posts yourself, looking for them. But of course you aren't going to do it, either. Because that would be absurd. Instead, you'll just keep harping on about it as if it somehow supports your contention that there aren't any examples to find. Because that's the easy, cheap way to pretend you made a point.

It's OK, I don't think anyone here expects you to back up your claims because faith based claims are like that.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
If you are a theist and advocating for a religious message of unity, then you need to think through your true motives and intent. You need to operate within the framework and principles you keep talking about. Any deviation just shows hypocrisy and dishonesty. That is self-sabotage, and sabotage of your faith.

Unity will require all these issues to be addressed. That is the intent, a worldwide proactive discussion.

Why is it hard for people to talk about these points?

Regards Tony
 

lukethethird

unknown member
I would not need to say it, to me God has already said that when humanity moves away from what God offers, it is that what will drive the collapse of the old world order, good news though as the elixer has been given.

"The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change."

Regards Tony
If I'm reading this correctly people that don't share in your beliefs are the downfall of society and have to be reckoned with? How lovely.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Actually, if everything that you want to be true is true then you have all the wiggle room in the world.
I can't want what is true, it doesn't work that way. Whatever is true is true on it's own merits, whether I like it or not, no wiggle room.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
More theistic atheophobia. Yet another thread to bemoan the wicked atheist. Yes, the secular humanist rejects faith and religion, and many consider organized, politicized religion a pox to be subdued.

But you lost me at point [1], where the author immediately reveals that he is uninterested in what atheists actually say about themselves and their beliefs. Most call themselves agnostic atheists. As soon as I see that mistake - one can be atheist or agnostic, but not both - I understand that the source doesn't understand his subject and isn't interested in being correct.

Number [4] also belies the source's bigotry. How is your source any less strident, aggressive, provocative or insulting than anything it criticizes?

Progressive revelation [10]? The only revelation humanity receives comes from the application of reason to evidence and conscience. As science and rational ethics drag the religions into modernity by teaching them such things as that monarchy and slavery are bad, and that the universe is billions of years old and evolved from a seed, theists are forced to call their scriptures anything but what they are - the best but wrong guesses of ancient people as to how they and their world got there taught as history. When called on this, they say, "You take the words too literally."

This oozes of a double standard. Somehow, rejecting faith-based thought is oppressive, but the theist's rejection of strict empiricism is not seen as the same thing in reverse. Disagreement with theists is depicted as intolerance and described as attack, but disagreement back as with, "You're thinking is too narrow, too evidence-based," that somehow is holy.

Who's rejecting freedom of religion [12]? Secularists inspired by Enlightenment values enshrined it in the US Constitution. Theists executed one another for the wrong beliefs. Theists hung witches until it was illegal?

The complaint is basically that secular humanists have a voice today through the best-selling authors named above and the Internet. Here, people like me are able to respond to these types of defamatory depictions of atheists that they have been subjected to since people began writing down words describing how horrible unbelievers are, but which until recently, there was no recourse to. But now they have a voice, a platform, and the theists aren't liking what they are hearing. They aren't used to being disagreed with. They're used to holding the bully pulpit to rail against unbelievers, who were once voiceless and powerless to respond. But that's changed, and like the changing racial demographics in some countries, the majority feels threatened, which manifests as bigotry, whether against other races, ethnicities, or worldviews like secular humanism.
  • "The problem with being privileged your whole life is that because you have had that privilege for so long, equality starts to look like oppression." - Mark Caddo
Isn't my response and responses like it the real objection? How dare these atheist upstarts push back? The unstated assumption is that the theist is a good person promoting goodness, and that therefore, those who reject or oppose this are evil. As I said, that theme dominates Christian dogma. Unbelievers are all fools, corrupt, and none do good. Do not yoke yourself to them. They are like an infection, fools who think themselves wise, slated for destruction and eternal torture for being in open defiance of a good God. You know the script.

And so, theists begin thread after thread aggressively bemoaning the aggressive atheist, condemning his "materialistic" worldview because he doesn't accept faith-based worldviews or the claims generated by them, never seeing the double standard of this symmetric situation being treated asymmetrically.

Isn't this kind of thing reason enough for any theist to be an anti-theist and support the evaporation of organized religion? Don't we have a right and obligation to do whatever is possible to eradicate that from the world? Don't I have the duty to answer a post like yours with one like this? Don't you have a duty to think about things and decide what is constructive discussion and what is just more bigoted, uninformed marginalization and demonization of atheists? Is this behavior consistent with your religious principles?

Thank you for such a detailed response. Personally I can not attribute intent to anyone I do not know.

The key is how we approach the discussion. There is no need to add there is any ill intent.

I have already offered that if religion is a cause for disunity we are better off without it.

So could we not say the same about an Athiest approach. If the intent is disunity we would be better off without it.

You have offered a lot about what religion has been and why it has not worked. That is.good we can learn from that, but the fact some got someaspects wrong, does not mean it is all wrong.

Same as an Athiest. You offered "The unstated assumption is that the theist is a good person promoting goodness, and that therefore, those who reject or oppose this are evil." Also applies in reverse.

So likewise the list would be an undesirable trend of some, not all.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I think if you read through this thread you will see every one of the claims either contested of compared to religion, including your own.

And because religion is itself guilty of the items on your list you may count it as extremely hypocritical.

Singling out atheists shoes the OP is designed to bash atheists.

So what is needed to bring about the unity of the entire human race?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
If you were asking me I would say that I wouldn't expect any objective evidence to come my way, just the unsupported claim that would give me no reason to formulate a belief.

OK I will ask again, here is your chance.

I am curious though, let's just say you lived in the time of Baha’u’llah, who claimed to be a Messenger of God. What objective evidence would you expect and request?

In case you are not aware Baha'u'llah already offered this Challenge to the Clergy and Leaders of Persia. He was willing to provide them with the evidence, all they had to do was decide on what they were going to ask Baha'u'llah to do.

Regards Tony
 

lukethethird

unknown member
OK I will ask again, here is your chance.

I am curious though, let's just say you lived in the time of Baha’u’llah, who claimed to be a Messenger of God. What objective evidence would you expect and request?
This I answered.

In case you are not aware Baha'u'llah already offered this Challenge to the Clergy and Leaders of Persia. He was willing to provide them with the evidence, all they had to do was decide on what they were going to ask Baha'u'llah to do.
This, all they had to do was decide on what they were going to ask Baha'u'llah to do., I don't get what is meant here.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I accept that you believe as you do. But there is no objective evidence for gods. You can believe in one of them, but that is not objective evidence.
And yes, there is more to life than objective evidence and religion is one of them.

That may be the quandary. There is a good example of this in the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah offers to prove his claim. All that was required was for the Clergy and Rulers of Persia to come up with one request that he would fulfil in front of them.

If course they could not agree and declined the offer.

Yet then they said there is no proof? Interesting is it not, this desire for.objecrive proof?

Regards Tony
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Well, for some of her citizens she is responsible for religion is relevant. But in general some natural scientists are not that strong in morality and ethics, because they in effect take their own subjectivity as a base for it.
You don't learn morality and ethics as a natural scientist and for some of the debates here are in effect also about morality and ethics.
But do you believe that you learn morality and ethics through religious teachings?
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Why is it hard for people to talk about these points?

They were not made to be "talked about" or to spark any sort of debate. These points were meant as a vehicle to set lines, present enemies and foster distrust and disgust towards atheists, more particularly New Atheists (that is a sub group of vocal proponent of secularization and opponents of religion in politics and culture of the first decade of the 21st century with at their head a group of philosophers, scientists and authors of which the most well known and popular were Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens though others like Pinkers, Attenborough, Myers could also be named). The author of those points wasn't looking for a debate. He was looking to demonize an enemy. That's why so many points, while not based on complete fantasy, are all exaggerated and strawmen.

It's the equivalent of asking someone "how often to you beat your wife?" and then acting surprised and shocked when that person gets offended and refuse to discuss with you (and then use that offended reaction as proof that they have a bad character thus certainly beat their wife; that' of course an ad hominem fallacy). The fact that this person actually beats his wife is irrelevant to their refusal to participate. The question was so offensive and biased that any discussion meant to present domestic violence and demonstrate that indeed that person is an abuser could not take place. For a debate or a discussion to take place, both party must feel like they have a shot at "winning" or at least a chance to be listened to in a honest way. Debate and discussion questions are supposed to be neutral and avoid hyperbole like "the new athiest humanities downfall" (note the multiple spelling error in the title: athiest instead of atheists; humanities instead of humanity's and the failure to capitalize both new and atheist; which add to the entire "sham debate" style of the exercise). The opening argument is supposed to be presented in such a way that someone believe they can engage with it and change your position. That's actually very rarely the case, but for the "game" to take place, it's essential to entertain that illusion. In its current form, the thread isn't so much a debate on the 12 points you have mentioned, but an exercise on proselytism and hatred toward "nasty atheists" in its misty form of "some atheists" and other unnamed vagueness both allowing to make all atheists feel concerned, but none being directly targeted as to avoid an argument.

TL;DR: you are extremely bad at setting discussion and debates; display poor sportsmanship; don't display much talent nor skill at them making you and your thread largely a failure at what you intended it for. Fortunately, it seems to have been undertaken by others for more interesting discussion on the Soviet Union's policy of repression on organized religion.
 
Last edited:

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Absolutely not. Marx was long dead when the Soviet Union was formed The Soviet Union policy on organized religion has also changed a lot during the 80 years of its existence. The Soviet Union of Stalin was very different from the Soviet Union of Brezhnev. Marx himself was largely an utopian writer. He believed that has society progressed towards communism, religion's influence and religious beliefs would evaporate as it was no longer needed. He believed that the reason religion was still popular, organized and influential in moral and political discourse during his time was because religion was "the opium of the people" a balm to sooth the pain of oppression and inequalities under capitalist societies. He also saw religious organizations as desirous to maintain the status quo and hostile to any revolution against an oppressive system. Marx believed that the spread scientific materialism was necessary to defeat the influence of religion, remove the opium of the people and allow for the revolution to be achieved.
Why does it matter that Marx was long dead when the Soviet Union was formed?. It is his thought on religion, as nothing more than an opiate for the masses, that should concern us in this thread. Marx, Lenin and Engels inspired the Communist Soviet state which included prohibitions against religion and, although those prohibitions have eased somewhat, they still exist. The poster asked for a dangerous atheist thought. I think Marx's thought qualifies.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That may be the quandary. There is a good example of this in the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah offers to prove his claim. All that was required was for the Clergy and Rulers of Persia to come up with one request that he would fulfil in front of them.

If course they could not agree and declined the offer.

Yet then they said there is no proof? Interesting is it not, this desire for.objecrive proof?

Regards Tony

Evidence and proof are 2 different words to me. Evidence is tied to naturalism and thus doesn't deal with the supernatural. Proof is logic or for legal matters.
Truth would be more appropriate as truth in effect is: It is so that X exists. At least for correspondence truth. But to show that God exists, is something else.
 
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