The new Athiest Humanities downfall?

[mikkel_the_dane]

I wasn't referring to any sort of understanding of nature, but the facts of how what we experience and function happens to be. Take your mind and interpretation out of it.

If you get cancer, that isn't dictated by any understanding, or philosophy, or illusion, it happens to be something real as you experience life as a natural being.

Real it is.
Imagine a small body of water, a pond. It is not real, but it is real, that you can imagine it. In it are 2 ducks. A real duck and a decoy duck, The decoy dock is not a real duck, but it is a real decoy duck.

You are so proud that you know that brains can "play tricks" with humans and that you are not one of them. Well, you are. We all are including me.
The problem with the word "real" is that is an a cognitive abstract and dependent on actual individual cognition. but you treat it as a property of things, but you can't describe what real looks like. That is the problem.
It is the same problem with existence.
The same with natural and being. You are doing old school philosophy.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

History has its own record we refer to. You do this when you cite your references. We all build on the past as we progress our thinking and understanding of how things are.

And sometimes we reject ideas of the past and find new ones.
Again:
Existence (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[F1fan]

Which is exactly what is offered by God's Messengers. The Holy Books are full of these warnings.

Wow, it didn't work. I guess God and its Messengers weren't good enough.

In fact Baha'u'llah has put the blame on the shoulders of the Kings, Queens, Rulers and religious clergy of all Faiths who held the power of influqnce over the masses.

Big deal, so has any number of critics all though history. Just because this guy jumped on the pile means little. We can add your God and its Messengers to the list of historical screw ups.

Baha'u'llah then said the power of our choice in faith and Moral direction is now placed in the hands of the people, as all power to inuence faith has been taken from the clergy.

Trade one religious authority for another, and it just means a change in power. It doesn't imply there is any real progress in the way humanity behaves. There have been many global wars since your prophet showed up.

This is why unity is now so important. This is a big topic and many tangents, but the direction we need to take in life is already given.

Yet your thread here sabotages any sort of unity, and even you don't seem aware of how it happened. I suggest it's because you are more devoted to your ideology than humanism.

That is covered in the OP list, I think it was item #2 and #6. This type of statement really rejects our entire human history, where worship of God has been the foundation of progressive civilizations.

If you have things to say that are covered in the list then you should articulate them yourself, as the list as a whole reference has created a great deal of conflict. If you want unity you need to understand it to a degree that you seem ignorant about. Your actions only taint the ideals you are trying to promote.

 

[F1fan]

Real it is.
Imagine a small body of water, a pond. It is not real, but it is real, that you can imagine it. In it are 2 ducks. A real duck and a decoy duck, The decoy dock is not a real duck, but it is a real decoy duck.

This illustrates my point that you prefer murkiness to clarity.

I suggest that cancer is real in your body. And instead of being able to accept that clear reality you diverge into a Hallmark movie of a character who gets imaginary cancer.

You don't seem happy to just focus on what is a real phenomenon in front of you, and need to frame it is some illusory referent.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This illustrates my point that you prefer murkiness to clarity.

I suggest that cancer is real in your body. And instead of being able to accept that clear reality you diverge into a Hallmark movie of a character who gets imaginary cancer.

You don't seem happy to just focus on what is a real phenomenon in front of you, and need to frame it is some illusory referent.

Well, that is your reality. I know what cancer is. My wife just had it. But this is about atheism and religion and culture in general. And if you can't separate the cognitive from the physical I can'¨t help you,
Your worldview is in part only real, because it is real to you. That is so for all humans.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not at all, I have struggled many times to find work, after 9/11 the aviation industry collapsed and the factory i worked in closed, all my savings had been in the stock market which collapsed, I was forced to travel to find work, and yes I worked Sundays if it was needed, as I have done many times. Covid has again lost me my job, and I got divorced the same day, losing all my savings to an avaricious ex wife, I had also worked very hard and planned to retire this year, as my health has been a struggle.

Whining about it is pointless, if you don't want to work Sundays then don't, there is no law forcing anyone to after all.

At least you're pretty.
Get well soon.

 

[blü 2]

Real has no observable property.

Try going without real air for a minute or two and see if you observe anything relevant, see if you learn anything.

 

[Sheldon]

lukethethird said: ↑
I have no idea what you mean when you speak of God, so how can I possibly share in such a belief? I don't know what makes me an atheist most of the time because God means different things to different people. You can call me a liar if that's what you have to do to hold firm to your beliefs, no skin off my teeth.

So does that mean, that instead of trying to understand what God is, in the capacity of our human mind, you would offer it is best to reject the concept, not even consider it?

Even more relevant is that you refute a concept, that you have said you have no idea what it is you are refuting?

RegardsTony

He never once mentioned rejecting anything? I can't speak for any other atheist, but I was born with no belief in any deity, and though various claims and concepts have been made and offered to me, I see no objective evidence they are real or valid. I also disbelieve all unfalsifiable claims, as I find them meaningless, and they are easy to create. The arguments are either deeply flawed, or irrational.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Try going without real air for a minute or two and see if you observe anything relevant, see if you learn anything.

Try to doubt your own culture and not just everybody else's. You are not that special. Nobody is and that includes me. Real is a cultural word like God. You don't have to believe in it.
It has a history and only came into use around early 14c. It is as cultural as God. Before it came into use that was no real world, yet the world was apparently there.

So let us say you see a black cat. You can see black. Now you see a real cat. What does real look like?
Or what is the difference between air and real air?
Check your culture!!!

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

He never once mentioned rejecting anything? I can't speak for any other atheist, but I was born with no belief in any deity, and though various claims and concepts have been made and offered to me, I see no objective evidence they are real or valid. I also disbelieve all unfalsifiable claims, as I find them meaningless, and they are easy to create. The arguments are either deeply flawed, or irrational.

You were without the cognition to say that you were an atheist, so you wasn't an atheist, also because you didn't know it. It is a deeply flawed and irrational argument. You can only say you are an atheist, because you know it.

Wait, sorry Sheldon. You are so objective, that you don't need a brain. That explains all.

As for the bold objective evidence for that otherwise it is meaningless.

 

[blü 2]

Try to doubt your own culture and not just everybody else's. You are not that special. Nobody is and that includes me. Real is a cultural word like God. You don't have to believe in it.
It has a history and only came into use around early 14c. It is as cultural as God. Before it came into use that was no real world, yet the world was apparently there.

So let us say you see a black cat. You can see black. Now you see a real cat. What does real look like?
Or what is the difference between air and real air?
Check your culture!!!

You're still alive, so you're still breathing!

Well done. You're catching on.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How can I formulate a belief based on invisible and supernatural?

By listening to the way it is communicated to us.

Regards Tony

 

[Revoltingest]

By listening to the way it is communicated to us.

Regards Tony

I haven't received the communique.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How does an objective human mind understand a God? Note that this mind relies on facts about the God, not lore, not learned beliefs, not revelations or prophesy from others.

Can you honestly site any facts about an actual God?

I see the human mind is subjective and we will always have to rely on our flawed, subjective human judgments when we try to figure out what is God and what is creation.

Thus we need an Objective source and luckily God does provide that source of knowledge.

That source provides all the evidence of God we can know, yet God allows us to accept or reject the given source in any way we choose to do.

A mind that has limited itself to naught but objective proof, has limited the ability to see God in that given source.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I haven't received the communique.

Maybe It just requires more concentration? This world is like the ultimate party line and the communique from the source is put on that party line.

We get to listen to it all, so there needs to be a desire to listen to the source, before we can begin to identify it.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

I haven't received the communique.

I've seen nothing compelling to convince me anyone has.

 

[Sheldon]

A mind that has limited itself to naught but objective proof, has limited the ability to see God in that given source.

No true Scotsman fallacy, before we tap the rich vein of implying a deity with limitless knowledge to create a message and limitless power to communicate it, can't master anything better than subjective unevidenced assertions.

Objective evidence isn't limiting, it is simply a better standard for justifying belief than unevidenced subjective claims. If one cares that what one believes is true of course, rather than caring that what is accepted as true, is what one already believes.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No true Scotsman fallacy, before we tap the rich vein of implying a deity with limitless knowledge to create a message and limitless power to communicate it, can't master anything better than subjective unevidenced assertions.

Objective evidence isn't limiting, it is simply a better standard for justifying belief than unevidenced subjective claims. If one cares that what one believes is true of course, rather than caring that what is accepted as true, is what one already believes.

I was looking through what has been offered in the Baha'i Writings on this topic, here is one quote.

"One of the strangest things witnessed is that the materialists of today are proud of their natural instincts and bondage. They state that nothing is entitled to belief and acceptance except that which is sensible or tangible. By their own statements they are captives of nature, unconscious of the spiritual world, uninformed of the divine Kingdom and unaware of heavenly bestowals. If this be a virtue the animal has attained it to a superlative degree, for the animal is absolutely ignorant of the realm of spirit and out of touch with the inner world of conscious realization. The animal would agree with the materialist in denying the existence of that which transcends the senses. If we admit that being limited to the plane of the senses is a virtue the animal is indeed more virtuous than man, for it is entirely bereft of that which lies beyond, absolutely oblivious of the kingdom of God and its traces whereas God has deposited within the human creature an illimitable power by which he can rule the world of nature."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 235-236

Personally I see we are not bound to this material world, we have been given capacity to embrace all the other worlds of God one of them being the inner world of conscious realization.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

I was looking through what has been offered in the Baha'i Writings on this topic, here is one quote.

"One of the strangest things witnessed is that the materialists of today are proud of their natural instincts and bondage. They state that nothing is entitled to belief and acceptance except that which is sensible or tangible. By their own statements they are captives of nature, unconscious of the spiritual world, uninformed of the divine Kingdom and unaware of heavenly bestowals. If this be a virtue the animal has attained it to a superlative degree, for the animal is absolutely ignorant of the realm of spirit and out of touch with the inner world of conscious realization. The animal would agree with the materialist in denying the existence of that which transcends the senses. If we admit that being limited to the plane of the senses is a virtue the animal is indeed more virtuous than man, for it is entirely bereft of that which lies beyond, absolutely oblivious of the kingdom of God and its traces whereas God has deposited within the human creature an illimitable power by which he can rule the world of nature."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 235-236

Personally I see we are not bound to this material world, we have been given capacity to embrace all the other worlds of God one of them being the inner world of conscious realization.

Regards Tony

So adherents and creators of a belief, that can't be supported by any objective evidence, insist objective evidence is unnecessary and limiting. Well they would, wouldn't they?

 

[lukethethird]

By listening to the way it is communicated to us.

Regards Tony

What is being communicated now is about what those atheists are and the downfall of humanity, how wonderful. Who are we going after next?