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The new Athiest Humanities downfall?

Is the new Athiest Humanities downfall?

  • Yes it is!

    Votes: 4 11.4%
  • No it isn't!

    Votes: 18 51.4%
  • Yes but I will explain more.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No but I will explain more.

    Votes: 6 17.1%
  • I offer a different view.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The subject is more complex.

    Votes: 7 20.0%

  • Total voters
    35

Sheldon

Veteran Member
What you keep failing to understand is that the phenomena you just described is real and extant. You are hopelessly stuck on the idea that imagination isn't "real" because what is being imagined isn't physical. But imagination is real, and so are the images and ideas that our imaginations generate.

Enjoying the Harry Potter books doesn't make wizardry real. Even if they become an obsession that lends meaning to your life.

you are refusing to recognize the difference between religion and theism.

Nonsense, I even gave a clear definition of both.

You cannot understand or debate theism using a materialist paradigm. So you run to religion and attack it, instead.

Religion is an idea, it can't be ringfenced from critical scrutiny, and describing that as attacking it is risible hyperbole.

Every time you harp on a lack of "falsifiability" you are talking about your own philosophical materialism and how it is unable to address any metaphysical phenomena. And the problem isn't the metaphysical phenomena, as that clearly exists. It's that your materialist paradigm is too narrow to comprehend it.

Firstly I've made no claims about materialism, unless you want to deny that material world and universe exist? Secondly you keep blaming atheists because they won't think in the same terms you do, and then call atheists biased, the irony is manifest. Am I obliged to adopt your rationale then, when did that happen?

But instead of accepting this, you just keep swinging wildly in 'auto-defense' mode,

:facepalm: Irony overload, after this disjointed rant that simply ignores what I said and cries foul, just because I won't think and believe as you do. :rolleyes: You are not content to hold your belief it seems, but must insist others do as well.

spewing whatever nonsensical objections you can think of deflect from that simple fact that your own world-view is too small and biased to comprehend theism as a cognitive human phenomenon.

So everyone who doesn't share your beliefs, or think as you do is wrong, that's not a very compelling argument. At least I am not telling you what you think and believe, and without the courtesy of any reciprocity I might add, where you simply label atheists as lying when they tell you what they think, as if you know better than others what they think and believe, again the irony is palpable.
 
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lukethethird

unknown member
That is a general definition. It surely won't apply to Hindu gods since their gods are not all superhuman. It wouldn't apply to native American religion.

Religions are very diverse and broad, and a single definition will have to be very broad as well to apply to the whole social and cultural phenomenon.
I define religion as art and people that believe are wanting to play a role in the big story.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This is a discussion on an article I found about 'New Athiest' and the list it contained.

So far it appears that #3, #11 and #12 seem to be the most controversial.

What part of the list do you see is bogus?

Maybe its the 'Downfall of Humaity' added to the title you see is inaccurate?

That part of the title is in relation to Biblical Prophecy, basically it says if we stop following God, we bring upon ourselves destruction, passages such as this;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,"

There are many writings that show when we stop practising what God has offered, that humanity faces downfall of civilizations.

Life is the sum of our choices.

Regards Tony
The historian Arnold Toynbee wrote extensively about the declines of civilizations. His conclusions was that the major cause of decline was the when citizens became complacent and indifferent to the inept course of leadership.

Let's note that there is no factual basis for proposing that any god has offered any actual guidance for humans.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That is a general definition. It surely won't apply to Hindu gods since their gods are not all superhuman. It wouldn't apply to native American religion.

Religions are very diverse and broad, and a single definition will have to be very broad as well to apply to the whole social and cultural phenomenon.

That is why you get these 2:
religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts

"Religion is the most comprehensive and intensive manner of valuing known to human beings."
What is Religion?

Be these 2 even atheists are religious in some sense.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Maybe, but is a right all employees have of course.



Well I live in the UK, and jobs are a lot harder to come by where I live than in London, where I have worked btw.



Well there are jobs where Sundays working is necessary, if you don't want to work Sunday then why not take another job?


I’ve never had much difficulty finding work in London, true. The difficulty comes in finding work which pay enough for even a modest lifestyle.

But to return to the issue of working on a Sunday; when the Sunday trading laws were revised here in the 1980s many trade unions, especially those representing the leisure industries, retail and distribution workers etc, opposed the changes on the grounds that people would eventually be coerced into working on a Sunday. And 40 years on, in those industries, they definitely are. Not to mention that the old days of routinely being paid extra time for working anti social hours seem to be history in many industries also.

Forget religion (if you can, for a minute). Surrendering a national day of rest, once a week for the whole community, comes with social costs which have to be set against any commercial benefits. And we should be asking, as ever in the discussion of economic affairs, Who benefits, and Who loses out?

The point however is moot. Capitalism, secularism and materialism have won this one. Just remember when you are celebrating victory, that someone who would rather be with their family, is probably having to work.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I define religion as art and people that believe are wanting to play a role in the big story.


This is something all humans do; construct narratives to make sense of our lives. The world of the senses is woven from metaphor and mystery, and the stories we believe about the world are, in the end, always only that.

“We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little lives are rounded with a sleep.”
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I’ve never had much difficulty finding work in London, true. The difficulty comes in finding work which pay enough for even a modest lifestyle.

But to return to the issue of working on a Sunday; when the Sunday trading laws were revised here in the 1980s many trade unions, especially those representing the leisure industries, retail and distribution workers etc, opposed the changes on the grounds that people would eventually be coerced into working on a Sunday. And 40 years on, in those industries, they definitely are. Not to mention that the old days of routinely being paid extra time for working anti social hours seem to be history in many industries also.

Forget religion (if you can, for a minute). Surrendering a national day of rest, once a week for the whole community, comes with social costs which have to be set against any commercial benefits. And we should be asking, as ever in the discussion of economic affairs, Who benefits, and Who loses out?

The point however is moot. Capitalism, secularism and materialism have won this one. Just remember when you are celebrating victory, that someone who would rather be with their family, is probably having to work.

I am torn myself, a lot of us want to be able to shop on Sunday, and expect goods to shipped quickly despite it being the weekend, but the baulk at the idea of working Sunday ourselves of course. I also see that though jobs are easy to come by in London that the cost of living is also relatively high. FWIW I don't think unbridled commercialism should curtail people's rights, but we have to find a balance. I've often worked weekends when I didn't want to, but generally been lucky it wasn't contractual.

At the moment I'm having physio and don't know when or even if I'll be able to work again, and the divorce took pretty much all the savings I had. So I have to take things as they come for now. The irony is weekends are not much used to me now anyway. I do see the point that work / life balance is a delicate matter though.
 
This is something all humans do; construct narratives to make sense of our lives. The world of the senses is woven from metaphor and mystery, and the stories we believe about the world are in the end, always only that.

This is something many atheists fail to grasp. They operate under the conceit that they "see the world as it is" without the need for the "emotional crutches" others rely on. Many even believe their worldview is purely the product of the neutral application of reason to free themselves from ideology/myth.

This is indeed magical thinking at its finest.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That they CHOOSE to adopt ... because they can choose to reject it. And many do.
No, children do not have the cognitive development to choose what they are exposed to as they grow up. A five year old in Sunday school isn't choosing to be there. Children in religious households have no choice to avoid church. It might be boring but that is why there is Sunday school for the young, as it offers more entertaining religious lessons. By the time a child begins to have autonomy they have been well indoctrinated in belief. This is addition to the biological nature of religious belief.

Since the more publicized alternative to religious belief that has come from Dawkins, Hitchens, et.al. there have been more people realizing it is an alternative for them if they prefer to reject religious belief. As we see many more religious people see atheism as a threat. Any parent will want to guide their children to be a believer, just like them, versus allowing them to be exposed to the option of non-belief. In this thread we can see Tony's hostility to atheism, along with yours. This is mostly observed in the misrepresentation of non-theism.


How consciously or "intellectually" they debate this choice within themselves is also their choice, and their responsibility. The key, however. remains that it is a choice.
The human brain doesn't fully develop until about 27, way after they have been exposed to religious concepts.

Religions don't make anyone believe anything. Neither does social or political propaganda. All any of these forces can ever do is massage and support ideals and biases that we already hold. They cannot make us believe anything.
You need to study how strong an influence propaganda can have on minds. It is why trump and other corrupt politicians have gotten so much public support. These voters are not objective and making sound choices. The book Hitler's Willing Executioners explains how millions of ordinary Germans were coerced into behaving immorally and against the ideals of Christianity. Look how evangelicals around trump have used each other to exploit conservative citizens to attain power and influence.

Your claim here assumes the people you're referring to are VERY self-aware, are self-reflective, and very conscious of their decision making. You are ignoring how we humans get lazy and complacent in how we think and believe. After 40 our brains move into a stage called Crystalization, and that means we naturally move into a static way of thinking. If we are not aware of this phase then we are not able to make better choices.

Why atheists keep trying to push this idea that religions brainwash people is puzzling given the fact that the atheist themselves are proof that it isn't happening.
This is a fair statement IF an atheist insists that it's brainwashing. The fact is there is an evolutionary and biological component to religious belief that is just our nature, the "wired for God" phenomenon.

But the kind of religion IS due to the influence of the community. This is why Islam is more prevalent in the Middle East. Or why Catholicism is more prevalent around Boston. Or why Southern Baptist is more prevalent in the American South. Or why Mormonism is more prevalent in Utah. or why being Hindu is more prevalent in India.

People learn the religion they are exposed to. The children don't choose for their parents and family to be Muslim, and teach them Islam, it is the circumstance of their birth.

This is false. Religions are not a geographical phenomenon. They are subcultures of their own and are no more tied to geography than any other culture is.
This is demonstrably untrue. There are ethnic food festivals for a reason. And how do you account for the list I wrote above?

I see no reason to eject these issues from this thread as they are all fundamental aspects of the culture of "atheism" in a social/debate context.
What culture of atheism?

Are you just referring to how many people are responding to atheism being more acceptable as an option in a highly religious nation?

Do you accept the freedom of thought the books written by atheists offer to thinking humans?
 

lukethethird

unknown member
And many are lying, so you really have no idea about it.
I have no idea what you mean when you speak of God, so how can I possibly share in such a belief? I don't know what makes me an atheist most of the time because God means different things to different people. You can call me a liar if that's what you have to do to hold firm to your beliefs, no skin off my teeth.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
There are many premises that can support the possibility that God(s) exists. And those we can debate.
These are not TRUE PREMISES, rather assumptions. And arguing for the possibility of something means there has to be facts about nature and reality that is consistent with the proposition. Deities are typically "supernatural" which means they are in a category that isn't consistent wit nature that we humans functions within.

Now, you might come back and say that 'just because super nature is beyond our ability to sense it doesn't mean it isn't possible'. Well, sure. But it also means theists have NOTHING to work with. So the guesses about any arbitrary deity is no more likely than elves or unicorns.

Now you might come back with 'but so many more people believe in gods than unicorns' and this is true (many theists have used this come back). It's also a logical fallacy.

Humans can "believe" (conclude) whatever they choose, mostly because they can't know for certain what is true. How can an atheist conclude that there is no god without there being any true premise? And yet they do.
PNLY if they are highly introspective, self-aware, skilled at reason, and detached from their social influences and bias to think objectively.

How often does this apply? You seem to believe that just because a Catholic might continue being Catholic despite being aware of problems with Catholicism, and with belief in God, that it is a deliberate choice. Psychology reveals this is not the completely the case. People make decisions subconsciously and their conscious mind follows. It may appear to be deliberate since the conscious mind is aware it is "choosing", but it isn't aware of the subconscious actions that drive the choice. Your understanding tends to ignore a great deal of what goes on in the subconscious, and how this is affected by social influences.

Your resistance to this suggests to me you fear not being in control of your attraction to religion and want to believe it is a deliberate choice that you have authority over. My guess is you have some awareness that you don't have control over your feelings about your belief.

No, I accept that religious belief is driven by a whole array of phenomena only one of which is the "good feelings" it creates in the human brain. I actually think those good feelings are far less significant a motive than the very real benefits that come with the psychology of faith.
Are the "very real benefits" the social cohesion, tribalism, that comes with religious affiliation?

Most atheists have no practical idea why theists are theists. They stop short of ever really investigating it because they are finding their own rewards in their bias against theism.
I'll argue that even theists have no practical idea why they are theists, either. They just go with the flow of whatever their social experiences teaches them.

The social sciences, and biological sciences, are getting a very good explanation as to why humans evolved to be religious. And why humans continue to be religious as a non-conscious social phenomenon. There is no reason to think that humans will stop being religious since so much of the reason is the biology of the human brain. At best humanity can develop a knowledge base about religion so that humans can make better decisions about how extreme and fervent they decide to be. There's no indication that the more extreme religious believers have made a deliberate choice to be extreme any more than trump supporters have made a deliberate choice to support him.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Well, we are all biased. You are biased in that you believe you have objective evidence that science is the best method we have. I am biased because I believe in humans as such and I have no evidence for that.
You believe in humans? Are you saying you aren't convinced that humans exist as a fact?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
These are not TRUE PREMISES, rather assumptions. And arguing for the possibility of something means there has to be facts about nature and reality that is consistent with the proposition. Deities are typically "supernatural" which means they are in a category that isn't consistent with nature that we humans functions within.

...

That is not a true premise, that is an assumption. That is why we have methodological naturalism and not philosophical naturalism.
Evidence is a cognitive schemata based on the assumption that objective reality is natural, but that is not a true premise.

You properly don't like that your assumptions are not true premises, but that is your problem.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The historian Arnold Toynbee wrote extensively about the declines of civilizations. His conclusions was that the major cause of decline was the when citizens became complacent and indifferent to the inept course of leadership.

Which is exactly what is offered by God's Messengers. The Holy Books are full of these warnings.

In fact Baha'u'llah has put the blame on the shoulders of the Kings, Queens, Rulers and religious clergy of all Faiths who held the power of influqnce over the masses.

Baha'u'llah then said the power of our choice in faith and Moral direction is now placed in the hands of the people, as all power to inuence faith has been taken from the clergy.

This is why unity is now so important. This is a big topic and many tangents, but the direction we need to take in life is already given.

Let's note that there is no factual basis for proposing that any god has offered any actual guidance for humans.

That is covered in the OP list, I think it was item #2 and #6. This type of statement really rejects our entire human history, where worship of God has been the foundation of progressive civilizations.

All the best, Regards Tony
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You believe in humans? Are you saying you aren't convinced that humans exist as a fact?

Sorry, believe in that humans have positive worth. In Danish it makes prefect sense to say you believe in humans. Because we all know it means humans having positive worth.
 
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