State your translation (Bible) that states the verse better and why you like the word "worship" over "obeisance". After you give your reasons I'd be more than happy to relate why I think "worship" in this instance is an entertaining proposition for me. Why make it a one sided discussion?
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The New World Tranlsation of the Holy Scriptures
- Thread starter dan
- Start date
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Just about every one I own.... and for the record, I don't own a NWTsysint said:
.. if it makes you feel better I'll go with the NAB... we are talking about Matt 28:17, right?Matthew 28: 17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. (NAB)
Ok.... my reasons for using "worship" over "obeisance":
Meaning of the word prosekuneo in Greek.
William Tyndale was the first scholar to translate the Greek New Testament into English. He chose to use the English verb "to worship" to translate the Greek proskuneo (to bow down). Tyndale employed the English "worship" as equivalent to the Greek "bow down." When we read "to worship" in the English Bible, we must think "to show homage or obeisance" to God, a person of authority, or to false gods.
In the New Testament when proskuneo referred to the Lord, it meant bowing down before His majesty. Bowing down as a physical posture was a metaphor for submitting to His sovereign will and desire.
When proskuneo referred to worshiping the Father or the Son, by the disciples or the twenty four elders before the throne of the Almighty, it was used regularly in the aorist (aor) tense. The aorist tense expressed pointed or punctual action (in contrast to linear or ongoing action) implying that worshiping was considered a decisive or resolute moment of obedience or submission in the worshiper's relation to the Father or the Son of God.
There are two exceptions to this procedure. Jesus used the present tense (describing linear or ongoing action) when talking to the Samaritan woman (John 4) to refer to the worship that was currently taking place while they were discussing the matter. The other exception was when Jesus used the future tense to refer to action that was yet to take place in their lives
In summary, worship was an active verb (worshiping) in the New Testament rather than a noun (worship service). It referred to pointed events in the lives of believers when they bowed in homage and obeisance to the Lord, thereby expressing their resolute submission to His sovereign will in their lives.
http://www.mindheart.com/deeper/proskuneo.php
Are you sure you didn't post that too quickly?
When we read "to worship" in the English Bible, we must think "to show homage or obeisance" to God, a person of authority, or to false gods.
So, really homage or obeisance is more proper in this instance. Unless of course you think this doesn't mean obeisance. The NW properly conveys meaning in this instance, especially with the changing meaning of the word worship in the English language. Your first link had a different take. Apparently you have changed your position somewhat? Or, are you saying that this word "worship" takes on different meaning in regards to Jesus in this verse than homage or obeisance?
When we read "to worship" in the English Bible, we must think "to show homage or obeisance" to God, a person of authority, or to false gods.
So, really homage or obeisance is more proper in this instance. Unless of course you think this doesn't mean obeisance. The NW properly conveys meaning in this instance, especially with the changing meaning of the word worship in the English language. Your first link had a different take. Apparently you have changed your position somewhat? Or, are you saying that this word "worship" takes on different meaning in regards to Jesus in this verse than homage or obeisance?
Since you use the NAB and commented on consistency could you also please explain the rendering of proskuneo in Matthew 28:9 as "homage"? Also, how about Matthew 18:26 or Matthew 14:23 (homage)?
It seems to me that the NAB changed their style at Matt 28:9 to worship. Could this be for theology rather than accuracy? Why did the NAB change direction on proskuneo at Matthew 28:17 and use "worship" rather than homage?
I should point out that the NW uses the word "obeisance" at each of these instances.
I find it entertaining that if the word were "worship" as some translations (and theology) inference; they would worship although "they doubted". (doubting worshippers) That's why homage or obeisance is a much better choice of words.
It seems to me that the NAB changed their style at Matt 28:9 to worship. Could this be for theology rather than accuracy? Why did the NAB change direction on proskuneo at Matthew 28:17 and use "worship" rather than homage?
I should point out that the NW uses the word "obeisance" at each of these instances.
I find it entertaining that if the word were "worship" as some translations (and theology) inference; they would worship although "they doubted". (doubting worshippers) That's why homage or obeisance is a much better choice of words.
That was well argued.sysint said:
Nevertheless, please read The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship). If the matrix shown is, in fact, accurate, only the most gullible could doubt that the translators used dogma as their principle selection criteria. Or, to put is somewhat differently, "I find it entertaining" that anyone would take the NWT claims to a superior translation seriously.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
May I ask a very stupid question? Is this the translation the Jehovah's Witnesses use? If so, is it their own translation or just their prefered one? Sorry to be so dense, but I use the KJV almost exclusively. I do have a modern English version (don't even know which one it is) that I refer to occasionally, but I'm pretty much in the dark about other translations.dan said:
Yes and yes it is their own translation.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
Yes, it's the one the JWs use and yes it is their own translation.Katzpur said:
James
Apparently, out of 61 instances, the term is translated as obeisance 15 out of 15 times when applied to Jesus and as worship 43 out of 46 times when used elsewhere. It is a dogma-driven translation.sysint said:
You have so far failed to address Deuteronomy 32.8.
i think that it is a known fact that all of JW are fed through the same channel matthew 24;45-47 that is why JW are all in unity it says at the top of my posts that i am one of JW i think you know where my thoughts come from . because i am willing to be led by the channel that Jesus is using to feed spiritual food to his followersDeut. 32.8 said:
What disingenuous nonsense. There are many good Christians on this board who communicate clearly and ethically, consistently quoting their sources. If you are incapable of doing likewise, perhaps you should tune your channel. In any event, plagiarism is dishonest, and it becomes no less dishonest by virtue of pathetic attempts to cast Jesus as an accomplice. Quote your sources.may said:
"Apparently, out of 61 instances, the term is translated as obeisance 15 out of 15 times when applied to Jesus and as worship 43 out of 46 times when used elsewhere. It is a dogma-driven translation."
Big assumption on whether the translation of these verses is accurate. Some facts please.
Big assumption on whether the translation of these verses is accurate. Some facts please.
Sysint, the burden of proof is yours.sysint said:
Continuing with the comparison of the NAB to NW (and the little chart):Deut. 32.8 said:
NAB and NW when rendering the verses pertaining to Jesus harmonize in 12 of the 15 instances. I should also point out that NAB and NW are in agreement in all the other instances on the "chart".
The three were NAB and NW are not - Matthew 28:17 (discussed already) John 9:38 and Hebrews 1:6.
I will examine John and Hebrews and dispense with the deceptive little chart.
In John 9:38 judging by the context I'd say that NAB broke from consistency again and rendered worship where homage or obeisance is the better choice. Pharisees were present. I'm supposed to believe that this man starts worshipping Jesus? Hardly.
YLT and DARBY do not state worship but bowed and homage respectively.
EDIT: Douay-Rheims "[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him."[/font]
YLT and DARBY do not state worship but bowed and homage respectively.
EDIT: Douay-Rheims "[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him."[/font]