The occult

[The Neo Nerd]

So, the occult. I'd like to keep this in the general debates section; in order to get a good general view from many beliefs...

So the occult, what does this word conjure up when you think of it?

Growing up the word occult had evil connotations. Now a days i associate it with more non-deistic paganism.

Do you think it involves satan?

Only if you want it to

IS the occult evil?

The occult is a tool. Much like a gun it's only real danger is when it is handled by a human.

WHat do you think of magic?

I prefer to think of it as knowledge. In my mind magic dennotes elitism, some kind of super special power that a person has that others dont. Since anyone can learn magic it loses it elitism and therefore becomes knowledge.

Are wiccans all silly hot topic wearers or serious religious people?

I have dated lot's of wiccans. Personally i have found them to be absolutely wonderful, loving, kind people. But the whole white magic/black magic concept is stupid. Magic has no polarity it cant be good or evil it isnt sentient the concept of good and evil only comes into play when a wiccan choses to use it.

Do you think there is an alternative to the occult?

Many of them.

What do you think of Alchemy?

I believe it is just another belief system.

Are tarot cards evil?

I see them as a great self analysis tool. Whenever i have something on my mind i bust out the old cards, spread them out and use them to figure out my internal thought processes. As far as mystical fortune telling goes, i look at it as the same as gods, i'll believe in it when there is proof.

 

[blackout]

For one thing, Freemasonry has nothing to do with alchemy.

Modern day alchemy (certainly REALized allegorically at any rate)
is the "illusory" magick of "turning paper into gold".
Elitist magickans literally "turn paper to gold"
by infusing the "money" they "make"(create) with an illusory value,
and then instituting "belief systems" about it through propaganda( ie...prop-agenda),
the primary "prop" being the (non-counterfiet) paper/cash/bills/denominations themselves.
You "make it", you hold it, you see and touch it, you use it, you "get" things.

Rich men with money, who congregate in secret clubs
(on hidden levels)
to assist one another in their own "money making" endeavors,
under cover of a brotherhood of secrecy,
in terms of "allegorical rites/rights",
though they "mason their personal fortunes"
in the building of their communities together...
are man-I-festing their own brand of influential occultic elitism.

This also is a form of allegorical alchemy.
Also allegorical 'masonry'.

Has anyone here ever noticed
that those earning educational 'degrees' and rights/rites in society
are given "mortar boards" to "allegorically" place upon their heads?

Someone's idea of a joke perhaps?

Look. And I don't even care really.
I consider mySelf an Occultist after all.
I really do resent as a woman though that
FORTUNE AND SOCIETY BUILDING CLUBS
of 'high levels' and 'degrees' exclude women.
It gives men an unfair alliance. (ALL I ance)

I have enough of my own allegories and rites to keep me happy & busy for a lifetime.
What I could use is a little societal alchemy in my bank account.
I would probably become a freemason if it were open to me.
There is no Temple of Set Pylon ANYWHERE around me to be found.
Really, nothing else appeals to me at all.

Freemasonry a little.
At least it makes me curious, and I could use some powerful social alliance.
I love allegorical rites as well.

As usual... there is nowhere for me.
Poor lowly woman that I am.

That is why I fight so furiously each and every day to build a world of my own making......
Allegorically speaking I am ALREADY and truly, a Free Mason.
(a free thinking builder of 'worlds')
And I REALize my rights, as rites of my own making.

 

[Mr Cheese]

For one thing, Freemasonry has nothing to do with alchemy.

ha ha oh really?
You obviously are no mason.....or a very uneducated mason:sarcastic

..............

Many of you may have familiarity with the term “Alchemist”. For most this term conjures images of early experimenters attempting to chemically convert lead or base metals into gold, and the search for the chemical elixir of life. These experimenters did indeed exist, their work being the forerunner of modern chemistry. As there were “operative” alchemists, so there were also “speculative” alchemists. Speculative alchemists are often associated with Hermetic philosophy, and employ symbols of metals, elements, the planets, and chemical processes to describe and understand the spiritual process of personal improvement. The founder of Hermetic philosophy was an Egyptian sage Hermes Trismegisus. To the Egyptians he was credited as the author of all the arts and sciences. Deified by different cultures, he was known as Thoth by the Egyptians, Mercury by the Romans and Hermes to the Greeks. While in all probability there actually existed a great sage by the name of Hermes, it is impossible to extricate the historical man from the mass of legendary accounts of him . One of the famous writings of Hermes was the Emerald Table, which contains thirteen sentences summarizing Hermetic thought .

In the Sixteenth through Eighteenth century, Hermeticism became connected with Alchemy; and by what seemed mere chemical jargon and meaningless symbols, their true explanations were concealed from the masses and from the church, who would have likely pronounced many Alchemists as heretics .

Unbeknownst to most Masons, many of the symbols found in symbolic, or “Blue Lodge” Masonry came to us from Alchemy. In his book, “Symbolism of the Blue Degrees of Freemasonry” , Albert Pike describes these relationships and states that “By this and many other proofs we know that the symbols of Freemasonry were introduced into it by the Hermetic philosophers of England…” . Manly P. Hall in his work, The Secret Teachings of All Ages, states, “…he [Hermes] was the author of the Masonic initiatory rituals…Nearly all of the Masonic symbols are Hermetic in character ”. In spite of this, I was surprised to find a dearth of research regarding the relationship between Alchemy and Masonry.

Since Albert Pike informs us of the strong connection in Blue Lodge Masonry with that of Alchemy, I wondered if that connection continued into the Scottish Rite Lodge of Perfection, which in many ways is a continuation and completion of the Blue Lodge degrees. In this paper we will survey the symbols of the Scottish Rite degrees from the 4th through the 14th to see if we can find any connection with the symbols of Alchemy. My goal is twofold in doing this: first, to expose the reader to the connection between Alchemy and Freemasonry, and second to encourage other Masonic researchers to explore this very interesting and largely untapped area of study. It should be noted that I am a Masonic researcher and not an Alchemist. This paper is written from the viewpoint of that of a Masonic researcher . Let us know explore the Lodge of Perfection in a hunt for Scottish Chemistry!

Alchemical Symbols in Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite.

​

 

[Mr Cheese]

Modern day alchemy (certainly REALized allegorically at any rate)
is the "illusory" magick of "turning paper into gold".
Elitist magickans literally "turn paper to gold"
by infusing the "money" they "make"(create) with an illusory value,
and then instituting "belief systems" about it through propaganda( ie...prop-agenda),
the primary "prop" being the (non-counterfiet) paper/cash/bills/denominations themselves.
You "make it", you hold it, you see and touch it, you use it, you "get" things.

Rich men with money, who congregate in secret clubs
(on hidden levels)
to assist one another in their own "money making" endeavors,
under cover of a brotherhood of secrecy,
in terms of "allegorical rites/rights",
though they "mason their personal fortunes"
in the building of their communities together...
are man-I-festing their own brand of influential occultic elitism.

This also is a form of allegorical alchemy.
Also allegorical 'masonry'.

Has anyone here ever noticed
that those earning educational 'degrees' and rights/rites in society
are given "mortar boards" to "allegorically" place upon their heads?

Someone's idea of a joke perhaps?

Look. And I don't even care really.
I consider mySelf an Occultist after all.
I really do resent as a woman though that
FORTUNE AND SOCIETY BUILDING CLUBS
of 'high levels' and 'degrees' exclude women.
It gives men an unfair alliance. (ALL I ance)

I have enough of my own allegories and rites to keep me happy & busy for a lifetime.
What I could use is a little societal alchemy in my bank account.
I would probably become a freemason if it were open to me.
There is no Temple of Set Pylon ANYWHERE around me to be found.
Really, nothing else appeals to me at all.

Freemasonry a little.
At least it makes me curious, and I could use some powerful social alliance.
I love allegorical rites as well.

As usual... there is nowhere for me.
Poor lowly woman that I am.

That is why I fight so furiously each and every day to build a world of my own making......
Allegorically speaking I am ALREADY and truly, a Free Mason.
(a free thinking builder of 'worlds')
And I REALize my rights, as rites of my own making.

temple of set?

I dread to ask, but wots dat?

Good article on alchemy:

Despite the insistence of historians of science, alchemy was never, except in its degenerate aspects, a primitive chemistry. It was a "sacramental" science in which material phenomena were not autonomous, but represented only the "condensation" of psychic and spiritual realities. When the spontaneity and mystery of nature is penetrated, it becomes transparent. On the one hand it is transfigured under the lightning-flashes of divine energies, and on the other it incorporates and symbolizes those "angelic" states that fallen man can only glimpse for brief moments, when listening to music or when contemplating a human face. Symbols are not meant to be "stuck onto" things: they are the very structure, the presence, and the beauty of things such as they are in the process of perfection in God. For alchemy, which is the science of symbol, there was no question, as has sometimes been said, of a "material" unity of nature, but of a spiritual unity – one could almost say a spiritual Assumption of nature. For nature, ultimately, is none other than the place of a metaphysical principle: through man it becomes the body of the Word and, as it were, the bride of God.

Alchemy Journal Vol.1 No.1​

 

[blackout]

Can't wait to go through your links Mr. Cheese.

Love this... compelling in similar fashion to an engaging & fanciful tarot deck.

I adore symbolism in art.

And here is a link for you.
Temple of Set- Official Site

 

[Willamena]

I would probably become a freemason if it were open to me.
There is no Temple of Set Pylon ANYWHERE around me to be found.
Really, nothing else appeals to me at all.

What is the appeal?

 

[sojourner]

Rich men with money, who congregate in secret clubs
(on hidden levels)
to assist one another in their own "money making" endeavors,
under cover of a brotherhood of secrecy,
in terms of "allegorical rites/rights",
though they "mason their personal fortunes"
in the building of their communities together...
are man-I-festing their own brand of influential occultic elitism.

This also is a form of allegorical alchemy.
Also allegorical 'masonry'.

Except that masonry accepts rich and poor alike. The amount of money one has does not enter the picture. Plus the fact that masonry forbids the use of one's masonic ties for personal gain.

 

[sojourner]

ha ha oh really?
You obviously are no mason.....or a very uneducated mason

You're free to think whatever you want.

Unbeknownst to most Masons, many of the symbols found in symbolic, or “Blue Lodge” Masonry came to us from Alchemy. In his book, “Symbolism of the Blue Degrees of Freemasonry” , Albert Pike describes these relationships and states that “By this and many other proofs we know that the symbols of Freemasonry were introduced into it by the Hermetic philosophers of England…” . Manly P. Hall in his work, The Secret Teachings of All Ages, states, “…he [Hermes] was the author of the Masonic initiatory rituals…Nearly all of the Masonic symbols are Hermetic in character ”. In spite of this, I was surprised to find a dearth of research regarding the relationship between Alchemy and Masonry.

Since Albert Pike informs us of the strong connection in Blue Lodge Masonry with that of Alchemy, I wondered if that connection continued into the Scottish Rite Lodge of Perfection, which in many ways is a continuation and completion of the Blue Lodge degrees. In this paper we will survey the symbols of the Scottish Rite degrees from the 4th through the 14th to see if we can find any connection with the symbols of Alchemy. My goal is twofold in doing this: first, to expose the reader to the connection between Alchemy and Freemasonry, and second to encourage other Masonic researchers to explore this very interesting and largely untapped area of study. It should be noted that I am a Masonic researcher and not an Alchemist. This paper is written from the viewpoint of that of a Masonic researcher . Let us know explore the Lodge of Perfection in a hunt for Scottish Chemistry!

The Book of Common Prayer is written using the same linguistic symbols as The Tale of Peter Rabbit, too, but they have very little in common with each other.

While the two may share a common heritage (just as humans and pigs share a common heritage), freemasonry does not utilize the same system of understanding as hermeticism to achieve the same ends.

 

[blackout]

Except that masonry accepts rich and poor alike. The amount of money one has does not enter the picture. Plus the fact that masonry forbids the use of one's masonic ties for personal gain.

Okay. Well what do I know but hearsay.

When you hit the 32nd degree,
you can come get back to me and let me know.

oh. right.....

whatever. It really doesn't matter to me all that much anyway.
(I actually like the secret aspect of "secretive" societies)

Really I just get annoyed that they don't admit women.
and that people seek to "justify" and nullify their occultisms,
-mostly for 'christian' reasons-
instead of just admitting to them, and embracing them.

 

[blackout]

What is the appeal?

Most of what is made public about the ToS appeals to me.
(philosophy, aesthetic, "goals")
What it's like from the "inside" so to speak,
I would not know.
I will not know unless I actually join.

To be fair though,
I would also be happy to meet with a group of discordians and/or chaotes
(Chaos Magus) for fun and ritual.
(share sigils, create an egregore, stir something up? )
That would be really great with the right group of individuals.
But alas there is no "first church of Chaos Magick" in my town,
or "Temple of Eris" (in which everyone is pope... erm... who wants to be. ).

 

[Mr Cheese]

You're free to think whatever you want.

The Book of Common Prayer is written using the same linguistic symbols as The Tale of Peter Rabbit, too, but they have very little in common with each other.

While the two may share a common heritage (just as humans and pigs share a common heritage), freemasonry does not utilize the same system of understanding as hermeticism to achieve the same ends.

ha ha

and years of research on my part
and speaking to actual masons
and the essay by a mason itself

hmmmm

I think I'll take the words of actual masons than you

The book of common prayer?

I made no mention of this, you are creating a strawman....


Since you seem to know so much, please detail this:

"freemasonry does not utilize the same system of understanding as hermeticism to achieve the same ends."
....

Credulous oddities such as Heindel and Leadbeater; earnest, if unsound, scholars like Ward and Westcott; and such luminous mystics as Wilmshurst and Waite, all shared a passionate conviction that Freemasonry holds a key ­indeed, the key - which will unlock the ancient mysteries, the Secret Tradition, or whatever one chooses to call that subtle alternative to mundane history and orthodox thought.
In the last analysis, that is what matters. It is of little consequence whether or not Freemasonry is descended from the mystery religions of antiquity: the important thing is that influential figures in the recent history of the Hermetic Tradition believed that it did; and this belief colored their perception of Hermeticism as a whole and determined the manner in which they gave those perceptions practical expression. Without an appreciation of their idea of Freemasonry, however distorted and inaccurate it may have been, we cannot fully understand their role in the development of the Hermetic Tradition in the modern era.
Nor is this all. We must also be aware of the true nature of Freemasonry itself, of its relationship with esoteric systems of thought during the period of its creation, and of the more esoteric theories of its origin. It may be that none of these theories is correct, that the occultists were right, after all, in assuming a vast antiquity for the Craft; but even if it proves to have been nothing more than a curious social club, its presence, however passive, lay behind almost all of the esoteric Orders of the last two centuries - Orders whose creators believed in Freemasonry as the supreme vehicle for the transmission of a superior traditional wisdom. Unless we acknowledge the influence of the idea of Freemasonry and attempt to understand its nature, both as it is and as it was believed to be, our understanding of Hermeticism will be impoverished. We shall be like the candidate for Masonic initiation: in a State of Darkness.

FREEMASONRY AND THE HERMETIC TRADITION - Masonry - Hermetics - Hermeticism

Thus, the Sigil of Saturn is also found – with the columns added, carved on the tomb of a key figure in Scotland who is definitively associated with the incorporation of esoteric elements into Freemasonry beginning in the last two decades of the sixteenth century. This demonstrates that the particular configuration of the sigil on Valladolid ms. 40/8, with columns, was not a unique event and therefore was widespread. It was and is one of various emblems and symbols associated with a variety of hermetic interests.

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeV/CURIOUS.htm
...

The symbolic and ceremonial exemplification of all the teaching and tradition behind these facts is that which has been termed the Hermetic Art and many of the old writers on Freemasonry use the term freely. Albert Pike, in speaking of the reputed founder of the Hermetic School of Philosophy in connection with the Craft, says


"from the bosom of Egypt sprang a man of consummate wisdom, initiated in the secret knowledge of India, of Persia and of Ethiopia, named Thoth or Ptah by his compatriots, Taaut by the Phoenicians, and Hermes Trismegistus (Thrice Great Hermes) by the Greeks. In Egypt he instituted hieroglyphics: he selected a certain number of persons, whom he judged fitted to be the depositaries of his secrets, of only such as were capable of attaining the throne and the first offices in the mysteries, he united them in a body, created them priests of the Living God, instructed them in the sciences and arts, especially astronomy, music (which he is said to have invented), arithmetic and work in metals, etc. Under him Egypt paid homage to seven principal deities."


These were the representatives of the seven planets, the seven rays and all the other sevens which make up our environment.
The reputed writings of Hermes Trismegistus had a tremendous influence upon most of the early Fathers of the Christian Church. St. Augustine especially held them in great reverence. The word Hermetic had grown to be synonymous with concealed or mysterious. This arose principally from two causes. First, because the inner teaching of the perfectibility of man and the methods of attainment taught by the disciples of Hermes were communicated only under oath of secrecy, some of the teaching imparted and of t he powers released carrying with them real danger unless the aspirant was properly prepared, and, secondly, from the more material idea, associated with the chemical and alchemic activities of the philosophers, of the Hermetic Seal. The phrase "Hermetically sealed" comes from the method used for the sealing of glass flasks by heating the neck until plastic and giving it a twist to seal the orifice. "My lips are Hermetically sealed " was a phra se in common use, and the same idea was carried into the Chris tian Church in the Seal of the Confessional, under the symbol of the Black Rose of Secrecy, worn originally on the forehead or hatband by those only who were entitled to hear confessions. From this we derive the well-known Latin phrase sub rosa, under the rose, denoting any communication given and received in strict confidence or as in the confessional, Much of the teaching involved control over the powers of Nature, the power to work Magic.

http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artdec03/freemasonry_as_the_hermetic_art.htm

............

http://www.infibeam.com/Books/info/...tion-and-Freemasonry-Pamphlet/1430434538.html

 

[sojourner]

ha ha

I'm sorry. I didn't know this was funny.

and years of research on my part
and speaking to actual masons
and the essay by a mason itself

May I say that, if you're not a Mason, your research may be flawed.

I think I'll take the words of actual masons than you

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Could you elucidate, please?

The book of common prayer?

I made no mention of this, you are creating a strawman....

Actually, I'm using it as an analogy. You claim that freemasonry is part and parcel of alchemy, because it shares a common heritage and some of the symbology. But that doesn't automatically make freemasonry part and parcel of alchemy. My analogy illuminated this by using the BCP as an example. It uses the English language and the symbols thereof to make its statements, just as Peter Rabbit does. They share a common linguistic and symbolic heritage. But Peter Rabbit has nothing (other than that) to do with the BCP, just as modern freemasonry has nothing to do with ancient alchemy.

Since you seem to know so much, please detail this:

"freemasonry does not utilize the same system of understanding as hermeticism to achieve the same ends."

I decline further comment.

Credulous oddities such as Heindel and Leadbeater; earnest, if unsound, scholars like Ward and Westcott; and such luminous mystics as Wilmshurst and Waite, all shared a passionate conviction that Freemasonry holds a key *indeed, the key - which will unlock the ancient mysteries, the Secret Tradition, or whatever one chooses to call that subtle alternative to mundane history and orthodox thought.
In the last analysis, that is what matters. It is of little consequence whether or not Freemasonry is descended from the mystery religions of antiquity: the important thing is that influential figures in the recent history of the Hermetic Tradition believed that it did; and this belief colored their perception of Hermeticism as a whole and determined the manner in which they gave those perceptions practical expression. Without an appreciation of their idea of Freemasonry, however distorted and inaccurate it may have been, we cannot fully understand their role in the development of the Hermetic Tradition in the modern era.
Nor is this all. We must also be aware of the true nature of Freemasonry itself, of its relationship with esoteric systems of thought during the period of its creation, and of the more esoteric theories of its origin. It may be that none of these theories is correct, that the occultists were right, after all, in assuming a vast antiquity for the Craft; but even if it proves to have been nothing more than a curious social club, its presence, however passive, lay behind almost all of the esoteric Orders of the last two centuries - Orders whose creators believed in Freemasonry as the supreme vehicle for the transmission of a superior traditional wisdom. Unless we acknowledge the influence of the idea of Freemasonry and attempt to understand its nature, both as it is and as it was believed to be, our understanding of Hermeticism will be impoverished. We shall be like the candidate for Masonic initiation: in a State of Darkness.

Interesting, but all it really does is restate what I've already said: That, though they share common roots, they really, in the final analysis, don't have all that much in common, practically speaking.

The symbolic and ceremonial exemplification of all the teaching and tradition behind these facts is that which has been termed the Hermetic Art and many of the old writers on Freemasonry use the term freely. Albert Pike, in speaking of the reputed founder of the Hermetic School of Philosophy in connection with the Craft, says


"from the bosom of Egypt sprang a man of consummate wisdom, initiated in the secret knowledge of India, of Persia and of Ethiopia, named Thoth or Ptah by his compatriots, Taaut by the Phoenicians, and Hermes Trismegistus (Thrice Great Hermes) by the Greeks. In Egypt he instituted hieroglyphics: he selected a certain number of persons, whom he judged fitted to be the depositaries of his secrets, of only such as were capable of attaining the throne and the first offices in the mysteries, he united them in a body, created them priests of the Living God, instructed them in the sciences and arts, especially astronomy, music (which he is said to have invented), arithmetic and work in metals, etc. Under him Egypt paid homage to seven principal deities."


These were the representatives of the seven planets, the seven rays and all the other sevens which make up our environment.
The reputed writings of Hermes Trismegistus had a tremendous influence upon most of the early Fathers of the Christian Church. St. Augustine especially held them in great reverence. The word Hermetic had grown to be synonymous with concealed or mysterious. This arose principally from two causes. First, because the inner teaching of the perfectibility of man and the methods of attainment taught by the disciples of Hermes were communicated only under oath of secrecy, some of the teaching imparted and of t he powers released carrying with them real danger unless the aspirant was properly prepared, and, secondly, from the more material idea, associated with the chemical and alchemic activities of the philosophers, of the Hermetic Seal. The phrase "Hermetically sealed" comes from the method used for the sealing of glass flasks by heating the neck until plastic and giving it a twist to seal the orifice. "My lips are Hermetically sealed " was a phra se in common use, and the same idea was carried into the Chris tian Church in the Seal of the Confessional, under the symbol of the Black Rose of Secrecy, worn originally on the forehead or hatband by those only who were entitled to hear confessions. From this we derive the well-known Latin phrase sub rosa, under the rose, denoting any communication given and received in strict confidence or as in the confessional, Much of the teaching involved control over the powers of Nature, the power to work Magic.

Same here.

 

[Mr Cheese]

In otherwords....
You're being bloody minded, and delibertly obtuse
Your egregious position is wonderful!
When faced with actual questions you "decline to comment"
When faced with writings by ACTUAL masons, and links to masonic books about [Hermeticism] you just ignore it...
Like I said, I'll take my years of research, which includes writings of actual masons (I guess actual masons are suspect too huh? lol).... I gave a link to a booklet by AE Waite.
You DO know who AE WAITE was dont you? (hears the furious sound of google going)
You havent even mentioned what you perceive Hermeticism to be, and how it differs to masonary, you just cast clouds and strawmen.... Peter Rabbit? Uh yeah....
The simple fact is you really dont seem to know anything about the western mysteries (if you even know what that term means!), and "cloud" this by stating you refuse to answer....

frankly I call foul...
Perhaps I am wrong and you are very well versed. However as I said,you refuse to answer...only potraying one who is ingorant of the facts.
Even if I probed further, you would just "decline to answer"
which is garbage, one of my masonic friends in New York used to discuss the western mysteries on myspace of all places.... so this "a real ****&*&*& wouldnt speak" is absolute garbage

 

[Mr Cheese]

Actually, I'm using it as an analogy. You claim that freemasonry is part and parcel of alchemy, because it shares a common heritage and some of the symbology. But that doesn't automatically make freemasonry part and parcel of alchemy. My analogy illuminated this by using the BCP as an example. It uses the English language and the symbols thereof to make its statements, just as Peter Rabbit does. They share a common linguistic and symbolic heritage. But Peter Rabbit has nothing (other than that) to do with the BCP, just as modern freemasonry has nothing to do with ancient alchemy..

I never said free masonary is part and parcel of alchemy
I said Masonary is a form of hermeticism
Modern masonary, if you mean charity work and making coffee, of course it has nothign to do with alchemy.
If you mean actual masonary, it has EVERYTHING to do with alchemy...

clearly you know nadda

may I suggest you begin education by googling:

Visitae Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invies Occultum Lapidem

and

Tikkun Olam

for a simple beginning

 

[sojourner]

In otherwords....
You're being bloody minded, and delibertly obtuse
Your egregious position is wonderful!
When faced with actual questions you "decline to comment"
When faced with writings by ACTUAL masons, and links to masonic books about [Hermeticism] you just ignore it...
Like I said, I'll take my years of research, which includes writings of actual masons (I guess actual masons are suspect too huh? lol).... I gave a link to a booklet by AE Waite.
You DO know who AE WAITE was dont you? (hears the furious sound of google going)
You havent even mentioned what you perceive Hermeticism to be, and how it differs to masonary, you just cast clouds and strawmen.... Peter Rabbit? Uh yeah....
The simple fact is you really dont seem to know anything about the western mysteries (if you even know what that term means!), and "cloud" this by stating you refuse to answer....

frankly I call foul...
Perhaps I am wrong and you are very well versed. However as I said,you refuse to answer...only potraying one who is ingorant of the facts.
Even if I probed further, you would just "decline to answer"
which is garbage, one of my masonic friends in New York used to discuss the western mysteries on myspace of all places.... so this "a real ****&*&*& wouldnt speak" is absolute garbage

I find your posts increasingly provocative, argumentative and dismissive. I shall not discuss freemasonry in such an environment, nor will I continue to be berated for not discussing what I have promised not to discuss with non-Masons.

Call foul all you want. Sling names all you want. If you want to discuss the finer points of freemasonry, join up and show me a valid card.

Peace out.

 

[sojourner]

I never said free masonary is part and parcel of alchemy
I said Masonary is a form of hermeticism
Modern masonary, if you mean charity work and making coffee, of course it has nothign to do with alchemy.
If you mean actual masonary, it has EVERYTHING to do with alchemy...

clearly you know nadda

may I suggest you begin education by googling:

Visitae Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invies Occultum Lapidem

and

Tikkun Olam

for a simple beginning

Clearly, I don't have a problem with what you think about me (which is, as you say, "nada.")

May I suggest you begin your education by googling the term "goodbye"
for a simple ending to my participation in this particular discussion with one who knows just enough to be completely misinformed.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Clearly, I don't have a problem with what you think about me (which is, as you say, "nada.")

May I suggest you begin your education by googling the term "goodbye"
for a simple ending to my participation in this particular discussion with one who knows just enough to be completely misinformed.

oooh

you are a mason now..and you wont answer :clapexactly as I predicted
absolute horse doo....

Either you're a rather new mason, or your lodge really doesnt teach much...



she me your left elbow, then and only then can we discuss things....
Oh puhlease....

You wont even say why masonary is not hermeticism
I provide evidence, you merely say "because I say so"

:sarcastic fine....

I understand masonary allows for much...

but to deny the relationship between martinism, hermeticism, alchemy and masonary is just plain ignorant

Heck you don't even think masonary is connected with the occult :sarcastic

One just has to mention "cough cough" the golden dawn....
but neither here not there....

Maybe one day someone in your lodge will actually let you in on some "secrets"
:sad:maybe you're in one of them modern lodges....

there's my card,,,,

We can shake hands and discuss vegetables and how we should initiate people with guns...

 

[Willamena]

No offense, Cheese, but perhaps it's your adversarial approach.

 

[Mr Cheese]

First, the primary legend of Masonry is about the search for the lost Word, the qualities and powers of which are notably similar to that of the Philosopher's Stone, the allegorical interpretation of being able "to travel in foreign countries, work, and receive master's wages" being basic among these powers.
Through the process of time and development under the hand of skilled Masons, our American York Rite has arrived at a process which correlates one-for-one to the Alchemical work.
1st, Entered Apprentice (Alchemical Process of Calcination)
The candidate as the rough ashlar, or crude material, is divested of all metalic substances and taught to subdue his passions. He is admonished to burn away his impurities, or to put it another way, to use the common gavel to break off the rough and superfluous edges of the stone and make it fit for the builder's use. He is reduced to ashes, as it is the internal and not the external qualifications that recommend a man for Masonry. Alchemists relate this phase to the Fire of Creation: "Let there be light."
2nd, Fellow Craft (Alchemical Process of Dissolution)
The candidate is taught about the Arts and Sciences, and two pillars which could preserve them from conflagration (fire, step 1) and inundation (water, this step.) In the Old Charges we find that the legendary precursors to the Two Pillars in our Fellowcraft Degree were actually set up before the Flood as repositories for the knowledge of the children of Lamech, in music, shepherding, metallurgy, and weaving, and not during the time of King Solomon. This early symbol of "all the knowledge of the arts and sciences" is essentially equivalent to the "Ancient Master's Word." It is as if it is the same legend,which took two developmental routes.
3rd, Master Mason (Alchemical Process of Separation)
The flood has arrived, or in other words, the Grand Master has been slain, and the AMW has been lost. The Alchemical process of separation is that of dividing the subtle from the gross. The raising in the Master Mason Degree can be seen as a separation of that which is eternal in man, from that which is merely temporary. We review all of our hidden material and decide what to discard, and what to keep.
4th, Mark Master (Alchemical Process of Conjunction)
We now put together the material which was retained to form the White Stone, or Key-Stone, upon which is written a new name, representing our new personality.
5th, Past Master (Alchemical Process of Fermentation)
King Solomon is in his old age, his death is imminent. It is said to the candidate, when the hat is placed upon his head, "and may a portion of his wisdom descend upon you." This is the spark, ferment, or bacteria that begins to grow in us.
6th, Most Excellent Master (Alchemical Process of Distillation)
The final touches are placed upon the Temple, and it is dedicated with prayer and ceremony. Divine fire from heaven comes down and lights upon the altar, burning away any impurity which may have been in the work through God's acceptance of the offering to him. The tools are now laid down, and the aprons removed, as we move into the next process.
7th, The Holy Royal Arch (Alchemical Process of Coagulation)
After a long wait, the Sun at Meridian Height shines into the innermost recesses of the vault, under the ruins of King Solomon's Temple, and reveals the object of our quest. Scarlet and Gold, the principal colors of this degree, show us that we have arrived at the Red Stage of Alchemy.
I hope you enjoyed this basic journey into the relation of Alchemy and the York Rite degrees. A question that would be natural is how these relations could exist, when the history and development and sequence of these degrees is so widespread in time and so uniquely American. I would suggest that the formulation of the Rite was in itself a process of separation, fermentation, etc., ending in coagulation of what we have today.
Lodgical: York Rite Alchemy
......

ooh look seven stages....
like I said all along...
wow a mason said it too...

it amayzin

ooh look another book that "hints" [loudly] that I am right...and you are ignorant
The Alchemical Keys To Masonic Ritual - Google Books

 

[Mr Cheese]

No offense, Cheese, but perhaps it's your adversarial approach.

Well yes, I need to "calm down"

that still doesnt stop him being simply ignorant....

but c'est la vie...

he's invoked the "cone of silence"

also known as

"I know more than you, but I'm not telling, nu nu nu nu na"

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeah right

Ironically of course I couldnt give a figgy pudding about masons....
I think they are wrong lol