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The One Cause of Poverty That’s Never Considered

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
You should check out comparisons of all expenses a middle class family have say in Germany versus the US.
Note it is a mine field for how to do it, but here is my take on it as for the totality of not just Germany versus the US.
Well functioning enough welfare states result in less money in the hands of people but for poor and middle class, once they try to cover for they get for those higher taxes in the non-US they end up with less money in the US.
That's correct per this video.


Though I have to question what we get for our taxes in the US.
Not healthcare
Limited education to the 12th grade
Mediocre to bad law enforcement
No guarantee of social security for future generations


Unfortunately, there are a lot of businesses which get rich from government tax money. The government contracts out many services. The people who operate those business are often past politicians and government workers. If you want to be affluent in the US, the best thing to do is to become a politician or government worker.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
This is another point which is true. During the 1960s, when LBJ launched the War on Poverty, it was "in an age of prosperity, when many believed the economy was strong enough to lift all boats." But now, everything has gone to crap, thanks the culture of gross mismanagement, myopic recklessness, outright malice, and gross exploitation which characterized Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and every Administration ever since.

As a result, the country is in worse shape today.
I don't think this country is worse off economically today compared to 1960. I think the poor and middle income of today have a higher standard lf living today than they had 60 years ago.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
@Stevicus

Thanks for the OP, I found that interesting.
Whilst I haven't thought too much about those concepts generally, I have more specifically when it comes to education, comparing US, Australian and Finnish systems in particular.

Don't need to go on a complete tangent in relation to detail (happy to discuss further if people ask) but the private school systems are examples, I think, of money and privilege being diverted and hived off from the rest of society. Rich kids are amongst other rich kids, building networks and getting supported by a better infrastructure.

In an American context, I have a conflicted thought-set here, since the public school funding model is so broken. Supporting a degree of school choice seems important, but segregation of kids along socio-economic lines is not only accepted but encouraged.

Segregation along racial lines, not so much. And we deal with the cognitive dissonance of that and it rarely appears even acknowledged.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's much simpler than that.
There's no a Public Administration apparatus. It's all privatized.
The PA term is widespread in countries like Germany, France, Italy, Spain and especially in Scandinavia.

The Public Administration gives children free education, almost free university, and free public services that help people find an employment that suits them. It helps find them a house and so on.

In the United States it's all entrusted to privates who charge users.
But, but.... That's Big Government and regulation! Isn't Big Government "the problem?" o_O
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member

Heyo

Veteran Member
I don't think this country is worse off economically today compared to 1960. I think the poor and middle income of today have a higher standard lf living today than they had 60 years ago.
While that is true, it is also true that the rise in productivity has outpaced the rise in wages and that the change in gain from capital has far outpaced the change in gain from work.
If you set wages in relation to those factors they have stagnated or gone down.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
I beg to differ:

The average size of a house in 1960 was approx 12000 sq ft, today the average house built is approx 2000 sq ft. And even though including those factors, housing has increased very much, pretty much everything else has not. Today the poor of yesterday had a lower standard of living than today
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
While that is true, it is also true that the rise in productivity has outpaced the rise in wages and that the change in gain from capital has far outpaced the change in gain from work.
If you set wages in relation to those factors they have stagnated or gone down.
True; technology has allowed us to do more with less effort and in a safer way. Yesterday 10 people digging a ditch using a shovel and pick has been replaced with a single guy on a backhoe; and the guy operating the backhoe is doing less work in a safer manner for the same pay. it would be ridiculas to expect him to get paid more because the tools he uses allows him to be more productive.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think this country is worse off economically today compared to 1960. I think the poor and middle income of today have a higher standard lf living today than they had 60 years ago.

Still, the period from 1945 to 1970 was probably the greatest period of economic growth and improvement in standard of living that America has ever seen. An economic and political system in a state of progress and ascendancy creates a sense of optimism, progress, and hope for the future. In 1960, the same living generations that survived the Depression and WW2 were seeing huge, dramatic increases in the standard of living, though that started to peter out and stagnate by the early 1970s. Real wages have been pretty stagnant ever since. I won't say that things have gotten worse, but relatively speaking, they haven't gotten much better. Although, we do have more fancy gadgets than we did 50 years ago, but most of that stuff is made overseas now. That's been a problem as of late, as we hear a lot about "supply chain" issues, which has apparently become the new normal.

In 1960, we were still considered the "Land of Plenty," but now, it looks like those days are long over.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member



This was an interesting article that came up in my newsfeed this morning. It discusses poverty and how American society has viewed and attempted to deal with the problem over the past half a century, yet making little progress. The author of the book mentioned in the article, Matthew Desmond, takes a different approach and makes some compelling arguments that we've been doing it all wrong for all these decades. While conservatives argue that the reason for poverty has to do with the behavior of the poor ("dependency and idleness, exacerbated, they believe, by the receipt of government handouts"), liberals argue the issue is structural ("racism and deindustrialization, which, they contend, have entrenched inequality and prevented disadvantaged groups from sharing in the nation’s prosperity").

But what if both of these approaches are incorrect?










The article is quite illuminating and illustrates many of the problems in America I've noticed over the past few decades as well.

Here's an interesting statistic:



Desmond stated that, despite how he might sound, he's not a Marxist, but notes that Leo Tolstoy's writings were a major influence.





The treatment of homeless people, particularly in affluent, liberal cities like LA, SF, NY, is extremely damning.

The deindustrialization of America is also a major factor in the severe decline in the standard of living. As Desmond points out, the problem today has gotten so bad that the country may not be economically strong enough to help the poor.



This is another point which is true. During the 1960s, when LBJ launched the War on Poverty, it was "in an age of prosperity, when many believed the economy was strong enough to lift all boats." But now, everything has gone to crap, thanks the culture of gross mismanagement, myopic recklessness, outright malice, and gross exploitation which characterized Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and every Administration ever since.

As a result, the country is in worse shape today. Now, we were ill-equipped to deal with this problem through standard liberal-supported social programs, and more radical measures may be needed to get the country back on track to where it should be.



In this part, the author notes one of the key reasons why tax loopholes are never closed and why even the simplest proposals to reduce the misery of the poor fall on deaf ears. It would mean that the well-off might have to give up their own advantages, and this does not suit them. This is exactly what the problem has been all these years, and I've observed the same attitude myself, among both liberals and conservatives.

This is the main part of the reason why many people view liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, as being "the same" even as pompous, affluent, privileged liberals stomp their little feet and scream "false equivalence" all the time.

This is why, to me, all other issues pale in importance. What we're seeing now is the long-term consequences of decades of criminal negligence, and all of the problems which many are bringing up today, such as the supposed "threat to democracy" and the rise of hate and intolerance, all emanate from the wanton failures of our political system and those who hold stewardship over it.

It's not just about giveaway programs or free stuff (since the wealthy have gotten the lion's share of that anyway), but it's about rebuilding and restructuring our economy to be productive again.
This walling off of the affluent, of whom I was a part, was something I really noticed in Houston TX during my 2 years there. Neighbourhoods seemed to have a cliff edge. The fact nobody walked did not help. Cars can be a terrible curse in creating social isolation and stratification. One never met someone from a poor neighbourhood in the street or at the supermarket. (By the way, there were vanishingly few inter-racial couples to be seen, compared to Europe.) There was also a shocking tendency among some of my neighbours to speak disparagingly about poor people "trailer trash" etc, which I found very jarring. Paradoxically, this went alongside a degree of charitable giving that exceeded what I was used to in Britain. I never quite worked it out.

In London, one of the nice features is that you get blocks of council housing for the poor, right in the middle of rich areas. This has to be a good thing, both for reminding the rich how the other half lives - and not least that they are human beings just like them - and for allowing the poor to enjoy tree-lined, clean streets, and decent shops and public transport.

One big difference across the Atlantic is that in Europe many of the rich feel some sense of responsibility towards the poor, sometimes even guilt for their advantages. They are aware from history that the playing field was never level, that wealth begets more wealth etc, and so a sense of noblesse oblige remains in society. In the US my sense is that the American Dream is that everyone starts level and has equal opportunities if they are only willing to grasp them. So if they don't do well it's their own fault. This a myth of course - but a very convenient one for the affluent.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Though I have to question what we get for our taxes in the US.
Not healthcare
Limited education to the 12th grade
Mediocre to bad law enforcement
No guarantee of social security for future generations
Because any politician who campaigns that we need to spend more to solve our problems will get shot down in a heartbeat.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In London, one of the nice features is that you get blocks of council housing for the poor, right in the middle of rich areas. This has to be a good thing, both for reminding the rich how the other half lives - and not least that they are human beings just like them - and for allowing the poor to enjoy tree-lined, clean streets, and decent shops and public transport.

One big difference across the Atlantic is that in Europe many of the rich feel some sense of responsibility towards the poor, sometimes even guilt for their advantages. They are aware from history that the playing field was never level, that wealth begets more wealth etc, and so a sense of noblesse oblige remains in society. In the US my sense is that the American Dream is that everyone starts level and has equal opportunities if they are only willing to grasp them. So if they don't do well it's their own fault. This a myth of course - but a very convenient one for the affluent.
Well said.

As an American I hate to say this, but Americans in general are highly materialistic and self-absorbed.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Still, the period from 1945 to 1970 was probably the greatest period of economic growth and improvement in standard of living that America has ever seen. An economic and political system in a state of progress and ascendancy creates a sense of optimism, progress, and hope for the future. In 1960, the same living generations that survived the Depression and WW2 were seeing huge, dramatic increases in the standard of living, though that started to peter out and stagnate by the early 1970s. Real wages have been pretty stagnant ever since. I won't say that things have gotten worse, but relatively speaking, they haven't gotten much better. Although, we do have more fancy gadgets than we did 50 years ago, but most of that stuff is made overseas now. That's been a problem as of late, as we hear a lot about "supply chain" issues, which has apparently become the new normal.

In 1960, we were still considered the "Land of Plenty," but now, it looks like those days are long over.
In Europe too. 1955-1980 to be precise
 
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