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The One Cause of Poverty That’s Never Considered

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Government works hard to keep the poor poor.
How else, you ask?
By fleecing them for fines, & by stealing their property.
Civil forfeiture allows cops to legally steal money, cars,
& homes. Then it's up to the victim to prove they're
innocent of any crime in order to have the right to apply
for the return of their property. This typically costs more
than the value of what was stolen, so they don't fight it.
They're easy pick'ns for government.
Yes, this horrible stuff happens, I'm with you. But it's not the main driver of our economic system, it's just another symptom.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This walling off of the affluent, of whom I was a part, was something I really noticed in Houston TX during my 2 years there. Neighbourhoods seemed to have a cliff edge. The fact nobody walked did not help. Cars can be a terrible curse in creating social isolation and stratification. One never met someone from a poor neighbourhood in the street or at the supermarket. (By the way, there were vanishingly few inter-racial couples to be seen, compared to Europe.) There was also a shocking tendency among some of my neighbours to speak disparagingly about poor people "trailer trash" etc, which I found very jarring. Paradoxically, this went alongside a degree of charitable giving that exceeded what I was used to in Britain. I never quite worked it out.

There are a lot of cities like that to some degree. It's somewhat different where I'm at, as it's kind of a patch of blue in a red state (but turning purple), but there are also gated communities here as well. "Trailer trash" is a disparaging term which I've heard quite a bit. On the other hand, I've encountered people on the streets for whom moving into a trailer would be an improvement. Some people have to live in tents, and they're becoming more and more visible across the country.

In London, one of the nice features is that you get blocks of council housing for the poor, right in the middle of rich areas. This has to be a good thing, both for reminding the rich how the other half lives - and not least that they are human beings just like them - and for allowing the poor to enjoy tree-lined, clean streets, and decent shops and public transport.

There are panhandlers around here who often stand on street corners carrying signs. Sometimes they stand on the medians at intersections. So, even people in cars passing by see them every day. They're also pretty common in front of convenience stores and various other shops. In some cases, they seem pretty messed up, like they've got some sort of drug/alcohol or other mental problem - and probably could benefit from some sort of treatment, if any were available (the current system is somewhat overloaded, understaffed, and underfunded).

Some regions and cities seem to have more of a blue-collar/working class vibe about them, and there's sometimes a general feeling of "we're all in the same boat." But in the cities which seem more focused on the glamourous lifestyles of the rich and famous tend to be more divided and somewhat more cold-blooded about things.

So, some of the stratification in the cities seems to be playing out at a national and regional level. A local politician or business manager might say "Well, we'd like to help, but it's not our fault. It's the bigwigs at the state capital or corporate headquarters or the executives on Wall Street or those danged liberals in Washington. They're the ones who are the problem." That's what the folks down in Podunk are hearing. That's the kind of talk that puts them in a blaming kind of mood.

One big difference across the Atlantic is that in Europe many of the rich feel some sense of responsibility towards the poor, sometimes even guilt for their advantages. They are aware from history that the playing field was never level, that wealth begets more wealth etc, and so a sense of noblesse oblige remains in society. In the US my sense is that the American Dream is that everyone starts level and has equal opportunities if they are only willing to grasp them. So if they don't do well it's their own fault. This a myth of course - but a very convenient one for the affluent.

On various levels, the rise of liberalism and progressivism happened in the US on par with Europe, as both Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson started to recognize the need for better conditions ("The New Nationalism" and "The New Freedom"). FDR moved even further in that direction with "The New Deal." This was how the tide was turned from the half-century of Republican rule after the Civil War. (Wilson was kind of an odd bird, as he was kind of a liberal and even thought he could achieve a lasting world peace, yet still had that Dixiecrat racist attitude. That's where the Dixiecrats hit a bit of a tangle which changed the Democratic Party irrevocably.)

No doubt times were still hard back then, and when the Depression hit, it got even worse. World War was a major game-changer, as the US had to marshal its resources and dramatically increase industrial production, while Europe and East Asia laid in ruins. Our industries remained untouched, so we were in a favorable position for a while, and, even while Republicans screamed about communist plots everywhere, the post-war dividend also brought about great improvements, not just in terms of people's individual incomes and living standards, but also in the country overall. The interstate highway system and many other great public works came about. The leisure/consumerist society was born. Labor unions were also much stronger back then, so workers could get fair contracts and earn a decent wage, enough to support a family in the suburbs, which also boomed.

Of course, all of this fed quite nicely into the ideals encapsulated in the "American Dream." LBJ continued with his "Great Society" program and the "War on Poverty," although his main problem was in Vietnam. That's what led us to Nixon, and that's probably when things started to go awry. Then we got Reagan, and that's the point when things really went downhill. That's when Trump started to become popular, as he was symbolic of that era. The character of Gordon Gekko in the movie Wall Street also falls into that mold. It wasn't really the same "American Dream," anymore, or it somehow corporatized or turned into some kind of political gimmick more than anything truly real or genuine. It was also the rise of the Moral Majority, which was neither. (I was part of the Immoral Minority myself.)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
There are a lot of cities like that to some degree. It's somewhat different where I'm at, as it's kind of a patch of blue in a red state (but turning purple), but there are also gated communities here as well. "Trailer trash" is a disparaging term which I've heard quite a bit. On the other hand, I've encountered people on the streets for whom moving into a trailer would be an improvement. Some people have to live in tents, and they're becoming more and more visible across the country.



There are panhandlers around here who often stand on street corners carrying signs. Sometimes they stand on the medians at intersections. So, even people in cars passing by see them every day. They're also pretty common in front of convenience stores and various other shops. In some cases, they seem pretty messed up, like they've got some sort of drug/alcohol or other mental problem - and probably could benefit from some sort of treatment, if any were available (the current system is somewhat overloaded, understaffed, and underfunded).

Some regions and cities seem to have more of a blue-collar/working class vibe about them, and there's sometimes a general feeling of "we're all in the same boat." But in the cities which seem more focused on the glamourous lifestyles of the rich and famous tend to be more divided and somewhat more cold-blooded about things.

So, some of the stratification in the cities seems to be playing out at a national and regional level. A local politician or business manager might say "Well, we'd like to help, but it's not our fault. It's the bigwigs at the state capital or corporate headquarters or the executives on Wall Street or those danged liberals in Washington. They're the ones who are the problem." That's what the folks down in Podunk are hearing. That's the kind of talk that puts them in a blaming kind of mood.



On various levels, the rise of liberalism and progressivism happened in the US on par with Europe, as both Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson started to recognize the need for better conditions ("The New Nationalism" and "The New Freedom"). FDR moved even further in that direction with "The New Deal." This was how the tide was turned from the half-century of Republican rule after the Civil War. (Wilson was kind of an odd bird, as he was kind of a liberal and even thought he could achieve a lasting world peace, yet still had that Dixiecrat racist attitude. That's where the Dixiecrats hit a bit of a tangle which changed the Democratic Party irrevocably.)

No doubt times were still hard back then, and when the Depression hit, it got even worse. World War was a major game-changer, as the US had to marshal its resources and dramatically increase industrial production, while Europe and East Asia laid in ruins. Our industries remained untouched, so we were in a favorable position for a while, and, even while Republicans screamed about communist plots everywhere, the post-war dividend also brought about great improvements, not just in terms of people's individual incomes and living standards, but also in the country overall. The interstate highway system and many other great public works came about. The leisure/consumerist society was born. Labor unions were also much stronger back then, so workers could get fair contracts and earn a decent wage, enough to support a family in the suburbs, which also boomed.

Of course, all of this fed quite nicely into the ideals encapsulated in the "American Dream." LBJ continued with his "Great Society" program and the "War on Poverty," although his main problem was in Vietnam. That's what led us to Nixon, and that's probably when things started to go awry. Then we got Reagan, and that's the point when things really went downhill. That's when Trump started to become popular, as he was symbolic of that era. The character of Gordon Gekko in the movie Wall Street also falls into that mold. It wasn't really the same "American Dream," anymore, or it somehow corporatized or turned into some kind of political gimmick more than anything truly real or genuine. It was also the rise of the Moral Majority, which was neither. (I was part of the Immoral Minority myself.)
It's the moralising about the condition of poor people that I find hard to take at times. Maybe that's a recent development, from what you say about attitudes during the Depression etc.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes, this horrible stuff happens, I'm with you. But it's not the main driver of our economic system, it's just another symptom.
We shouldn't limit our concerns to what one
thinks is the "main" one. Moreover, the economic
system isn't the problem...it works just fine for
those who are productive.
Fundamentally, government pretends to love
the poor, but in actuality victimizes them with
disdain, corruption, incompetence, & exercising
excessive control over their lives, rather than
enabling them to be more independent.

So while you you see symptoms of economics,
I see the need for a more libertarian approach
to assisting them more effectively.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Fundamentally, government pretends to love
the poor, but in actuality victimizes it thru disdain,
corruption, incompetence, & desire to exercise
control over their lives, rather than enabling
them to be more independent.

That's why we need a new government.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's why we need a new government.
You want Trump stage a successful coup this time?
Nah.
We'd better stick with the form of government we
have, but vote for leaders with better judgement
regarding policies....smarter & more libertarian.

I have high hopes & low expectations.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have never met or known anyone that was well off in life that didn't 100% believe that he/she deserved it. That he/she had "earned every penny they got" by working harder and smarter than those who got less. Even those who inherited their wealth still think they "earned it" somehow. That they "deserve" to have it. And any suggestion that they were just lucky, or privileged, or excessivey rewarded brings on a whole litany of justifications and excuses.
How many of them have you known?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Especially "Right-Libertarians".

According to an old figure that I can't verify as still being true, the FBI had estimated that white-collar crime rips off 4 times the $ than all the street crimes combined.
That was still true when I had some anthropology classes.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You want Trump stage a successful coup this time?
Nah.
We'd better stick with the form of government we
have, but vote for leaders with better judgement
regarding policies....smarter & more libertarian.

I have high hopes & low expectations.

Trump? A while back you were calling me a Hillary supporter, and now I'm a Trump supporter?

Anyway, we still need a new government. It starts by voting for better leaders, who then reshape the government to better serve the needs of the people.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
We shouldn't limit our concerns to what one
thinks is the "main" one. Moreover, the economic
system isn't the problem...it works just fine for
those who are productive.
Fundamentally, government pretends to love
the poor, but in actuality victimizes them with
disdain, corruption, incompetence, & exercising
excessive control over their lives, rather than
enabling them to be more independent.

So while you you see symptoms of economics,
I see the need for a more libertarian approach
to assisting them more effectively.
- Agree on the "limiting our concerns" point.
- Not sure I agree with the "exercising excessive control" point. I often hear this sort of complaint, but I think it's implausible. I don't think "controlling" is what's happening, I think it's "profiting from". That's an important distinction.
- I'd like to hear some examples of a "libertarian approach to assisting". Sincerely.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Still, the period from 1945 to 1970 was probably the greatest period of economic growth and improvement in standard of living that America has ever seen.
True! After WW-2 the USA was pretty much the only developed country on Earth open for business; Europe and Asia was completely destroyed and it took 25-35 years for them to get over the war.
An economic and political system in a state of progress and ascendancy creates a sense of optimism, progress, and hope for the future. In 1960, the same living generations that survived the Depression and WW2 were seeing huge, dramatic increases in the standard of living, though that started to peter out and stagnate by the early 1970s.
True! By 1970 Europe and Asia were finally getting back into business and were finally able to start providing the United States with some competition again. I doubt we could ever see such an economic opportunity like that again unless we have another world war that destroys everyone else but not us.
Real wages have been pretty stagnant ever since. I won't say that things have gotten worse, but relatively speaking, they haven't gotten much better. Although, we do have more fancy gadgets than we did 50 years ago, but most of that stuff is made overseas now. That's been a problem as of late, as we hear a lot about "supply chain" issues, which has apparently become the new normal.

In 1960, we were still considered the "Land of Plenty," but now, it looks like those days are long over.
Naaw we’re still the land of plenty, it’s just that most of the other countries are as well.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Two of the wealthiest people in the U.S. make more than the bottom half of our own citizenry. And there is a great danger in this because they have the $ to "buy votes" with their donations and influence.

Yep, we got the best government money can buy. o_O
:Winner:
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Why? Do you pay for the size of a hole or for the work that went into it?
The going rate to dig a hole is based on how much it costs your competition to dig a hole. If your competition were using shovels and picks to dig a hole and you were the only one with a backhoe, you could afford to pay your worker a lot more to work the backhoe, but that is not the case so due to competition, you have to get that hole dug as cheaply as possible which means you get more holes dug than yesteryear for the same price
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Two of the wealthiest people in the U.S. make more than the bottom half of our own citizenry.
Why is that a bad thing?
And there is a great danger in this because they have the $ to "buy votes" with their donations and influence.
The 2 richest don't agree on political issues so if they were buying votes, they would cancel each other out by buying opposing politicians.
 
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