The One Cause of Poverty That’s Never Considered

[PureX]

Yes but my question has to do with disagreement within the community. Not everyone is going to share the same interests. So how does the community deal with this?

The investors have one agenda. Labor has another agenda. The consumers have another agenda. The community in which the business operates has another agenda. But they all have the same agenda in that none of them benefit from killing the enterprise. So it's in all their best interest to work together to make the business enterprise best serve all those involved, and effected.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, but that is the point. With capitalism you can pursue your interests and I can pursue mine. We don't have to have the same values or let others vote on what our values should be. You can work to support as many folks as you feel you can, whereas I can just be concerned with my greedy little self.

Then buy a piece of land and live for yourself. Because in a society you are not alone. That is where that one ends. There are no natural rights, they are social constructs.

 

[PureX]

"Means of production" was always a weird and vague phrase. I don't know why we keep using it.

What is being referred to, here, is commercial enterprise. The production of products and the rendering of services for the purposes of sale and trade so as to increase the well being of those engaged in and effected by it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then buy a piece of land and live for yourself. Because in a society you are not alone. That is where that one ends. There are no natural rights, they are social constructs.

That misses how capitalism works.
It's all about cooperation within a
framework of laws & traditions.
You're imagining a hermit economy,
which no one is advocating.
I smell straw.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That misses how capitalism works.
It's all about cooperation within a
framework of laws & traditions.
You're imagining a hermit economy,
which no one is advocating.
I smell straw.

Well, how do you establish rights?

 

[Nakosis]

Then buy a piece of land and live for yourself. Because in a society you are not alone. That is where that one ends. There are no natural rights, they are social constructs.

Sure, that is possible under capitalism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, how do you establish rights?

I don't.
Rights evolve with societies in a complex
stochastic fashion. They simply are what
they generally are at a place & time.

 

[Nakosis]

I always think part of the problem with economic debates like these is that often it's impossible to avoid talking at cross-purposes, because there are so many different schools of thought and so much meddling and conflicting terminology.

Sure, your socialism is my capitalism.
I wonder then if Marx would have had an argument against capitalism if he hadn't defined the "means of production as such".

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't.
Rights evolve with societies in a complex
stochastic fashion. They simply are what
they generally are at a place & time.

Correct, now explain that to @Nakosis

 

[Nakosis]

Well, how do you establish rights?

Culture. Which itself is fairly fluid.

Even in the US the culture of the left and the right have alternated between them various ideas of rights.

 

[Nakosis]

Correct, now explain that to @Nakosis

Didn't really have a question about it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Culture. Which itself is fairly fluid.

Even in the US the culture of the left and the right have alternated between them various ideas of rights.

Okay, and since I am an evolutionary socialist in the end, I accept democracy as such and I suppose you do so. So we both let the people do it.

 

[Nakosis]

Okay, and since I am an evolutionary socialist in the end, I accept democracy as such and I suppose you do so. So we both let the people do it.

Question do you think socialism should try to control culture or simply be a product of it?

 

[Revoltingest]

Correct, now explain that to @Nakosis

I'm sure he knows.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Question do you think socialism should try to control culture or simply be a product of it?

I think both capitalism and socialism are product of a culture.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think both capitalism and socialism are product of a culture.

I'd like to year hear a real answer to the question.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'd like to year a real answer to the question.

Oh, you mean if I treat socialism as the Truth in the end. No, I don't. If you don't accept that as an answer, then clarify.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh, you mean if I treat socialism as the Truth in the end. No, I don't. If you don't accept that as an answer, then clarify.

Doesn't seem like a direct answer.
BTW, I fixed me post....fingers & brain don't work well together.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Doesn't seem like a direct answer.
BTW, I fixed me post....fingers & brain don't work well together.

What is it you want me to clarify?
Human rights and minority rights comes first as the most important, but that won't work without democracy. Then comes socialism, but that is me.
So if a society meets human rights, minority rights and democracy then that is good. Now if the people then want to go socialism fine with me.
So socialism is secondary to the culture of rights and democracy.

 

[Revoltingest]

What is it you want me to clarify?
Human rights and minority rights comes first as the most important, but that won't work without democracy. Then comes socialism, but that is me.
So if a society meets human rights, minority rights and democracy then that is good. Now if the people then want to go socialism fine with me.
So socialism is secondary to the culture of rights and democracy.

OK.