The origin of 5 times prayer in Hadith books

[mojtaba]

GOD is free from the first Qiblah they followed and GOD is subjected for the new Qiblah they followed . In other word Muslim that time chose to follow the first Qiblah without any revelation of GOD .

Allah says that they had a specific Qibla,

The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path. (142)

There are so many loop holes in that Hadith e.g., numerical , logical , contextual and scientifically.

You are wrong, as I proved in post #39 and other posts.

Manifold problems in one single Hadith . It has different 5 versions on the same incident - which all prove its fallacy . Read my post#3 which stipulated other versions of the Hadith with a big difference .

1.There is not big differencecs between the narrations.Indeed, all the narrators narrated one uniqe fact by their own manners and some of them erred in their narrating, an ordinary thing( i.e., mistake ) in ordinary humans. We should investigate and find the most correct narration, instead of rejecting the fact itself, a doing which is not scientifically.

2. Allah Almighty Himself has narrated one story in different manners. For example,

Allah said about Moses,
when he[ Moses ] sighted a fire, and said to his family, ‘Wait! Indeed, I descry a fire! Maybe I will bring you a brand from it, or find some guidance at the fire.’ (10) So when he came to it, he was called, ‘O Moses! (11)Indeed I am your Lord! So take off your sandals. You are indeed in the sacred valley of Tuwa. (12)

So when Moses completed the term and set out with his family, he descried a fire on the side of the mountain. He said to his family, ‘Wait! Indeed, I descry a fire! Maybe I will bring you some news from it, or a brand of fire so that you may warm yourselves.’ (29) When he approached it, he was called from the right bank of the valley in that blessed site from the tree: ‘Moses! Indeed I am Allah, the Lord of all the worlds!’ (30)

Narrating a nat

 

[Union]

Allah says that they had a specific Qibla,

The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path. (142)

From whom they had it ? Not from GOD as no verse mentioned that .

You are wrong, as I proved in post #39 and other posts.


1.There is not big differencecs between the narrations.Indeed, all the narrators narrated one uniqe fact by their own manners and some of them erred in their narrating, an ordinary thing in ordinary humans. We should investigate and find the most correct narration, instead of rejecting the fact itself, a doing which is not sciencifically.

2. Allah Himself has narrated one story in different manners. For example,

Allah said about Moses,
when he[ Moses ] sighted a fire, and said to his family, ‘Wait! Indeed, I descry a fire! Maybe I will bring you a brand from it, or find some guidance at the fire.’ (10) So when he came to it, he was called, ‘O Moses! (11)Indeed I am your Lord! So take off your sandals. You are indeed in the sacred valley of Tuwa. (12)

So when Moses completed the term and set out with his family, he descried a fire on the side of the mountain. He said to his family, ‘Wait! Indeed, I descry a fire! Maybe I will bring you some news from it, or a brand of fire so that you may warm yourselves.’ (29) When he approached it, he was called from the right bank of the valley in that blessed site from the tree: ‘Moses! Indeed I am Allah, the Lord of all the worlds!’ (30)

No big difference !! Only the numbers alone make a big difference :

Incident ||1st Version | 2nd Version |3rd Version| 4th Version| 5th Version||
Prop. met GOD ||50 Salat |50 Salat | 50 Salat | 50 Salat | 50 Salat ||
Prop. returned1||25 Salat |40 Salat | 40Salat | 45 Salat | Unknown ||
Prop. returned2||12.5 Salat |30 Salat | 30 Salat |40 Salat | 05 Salat ||
Prop. returned3||05 Salat |20 Salat | 10 Salat | 35 Salat | ....... ||
Prop. returned4|| ........... |10 Salat | 05 Salat | 30 Salat | .......... ||
Prop. returned5|| ............ |05 Salat | ............. | 25 Salat | .......... ||
Prop. returned6|| ............ | ............ | ............ |20 Salat | ........... ||
Prop. returned7|| ............. | ........... | .............. | 15 Salat | ........... ||
Prop. returned8|| ............. | ........... | ............. | 10 Salat | ............ ||
Prop. returned9|| ............ | ........... | ............. | 05 Salat | ............ ||

 

[Union]

Comparing Bukhari's words time n again with Almighty ALLAH's words just to defend him really made me think what you are . I have to consult it with your Hujjah !

 

[mojtaba]

From whom they had it ? Not from GOD as no verse mentioned that .

So, why did Jews said, What has turned them from their qiblah which they had?

This part of the verse proves that Muslims had a specific Qiblah before Mecca, but Allah turned them from it.

No big difference !! Only the numbers alone make a big difference :

Incident ||1st Version | 2nd Version |3rd Version| 4th Version| 5th Version||
Prop. met GOD ||50 Salat |50 Salat | 50 Salat | 50 Salat | 50 Salat ||
Prop. returned1||25 Salat |40 Salat | 40Salat | 45 Salat | Unknown ||
Prop. returned2||12.5 Salat |30 Salat | 30 Salat |40 Salat | 05 Salat ||
Prop. returned3||05 Salat |20 Salat | 10 Salat | 35 Salat | ....... ||
Prop. returned4|| ........... |10 Salat | 05 Salat | 30 Salat | .......... ||
Prop. returned5|| ............ |05 Salat | ............. | 25 Salat | .......... ||
Prop. returned6|| ............ | ............ | ............ |20 Salat | ........... ||
Prop. returned7|| ............. | ........... | .............. | 15 Salat | ........... ||
Prop. returned8|| ............. | ........... | ............. | 10 Salat | ............ ||
Prop. returned9|| ............ | ........... | ............. | 05 Salat | ............ ||

This proves that some of the narrators erred. The narrators were humans who had their own problems. This is ordinary that they erred in some narratons. You can not reject the fact itself because of the mistakes of the narrators.

We should investigate in both Shis and Sunni books and find the most correct and authentic narration. This is the scientific method, not which you are useing.

Also, it is not certain that all the narrations in the books of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic. Shias do not believe in this big mistake.

 

[Union]

So, why did Jews said, What has turned them from their qiblah which they had?

This part of the verse proves that Muslims had a specific Qiblah before Mecca, but Allah turned them from it.

Good boy . Now you understand . The latter was the doing of ALLAH and not the first .

This proves that some of the narrators erred. The narrators were humans who had their own problems. This is ordinary that they err in some narratons. You can not reject the fact itself because of the mistakes of the narrators.

We should investigate in both Shis and Sunni books and find the most correct and authentic narration. This is the scientific method, not which you are useing.

Also, it is not certain that all the narrations in the books of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic. Shias do not believe in this big mistake.

You said it all my boy ...

 

[mojtaba]

I do not see any scientific methodology in this thread. All scientific methods would be rejected by Union.

Good bye!

 

[Union]

I do not see any scientific methodology in this thread. All scientific methods would be rejected by Union.

Good bye!

Cool down and Good bye !

 

[mojtaba]

Good boy . Now you understand . The latter was the doing of ALLAH and not the first .

Do you mean that Allah leaved Muslims without any Qibla? So sad!

According to Quran, before Mecca, Muslims had another specific Qibla. But, you say that Allah did not choose that Qibla.

Yes, according to your belief, Allah obligated Salat, but He did not select any direction for saying it and leaved Muslims without any Qibla! So sad.

 

[Union]

Do you mean that Allah leaved Muslims without any Qibla? So sad!
Before Mecca, Muslims had an other specific Qibla, as Quran says. But, you say that Allah did not choose that Qibla.
Yes, Allah obligated Salat, but He did not select any direction for saying it! So sad.

2.142 The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.

And I thought you said Good bye already

 

[mojtaba]

Comparing Bukhari's words time n again with Almighty ALLAH's words just to defend him really made me think what you are . I have to consult it with your Hujjah !

I was not going to compare the Words of Almighty Allah with the sayings of the narrators.

I meant that differnt manners of narration is ordinary and it does not mean that the happening itself did not happen.

 

[mojtaba]

2.142 The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.

And I thought you said Good bye already

That part means that the East and the West belong only to Allah, so that He can change the direction which He chose for Qibla at first time.

When Allah changed the Qibla, non-Muslims said that what has turned them from their qiblah which they had? If Allah chose the first Qibla, so why did He chage it. So that, Muhammad is not the Messenger of God, Who does not change His decisions.

Therefore, Allah answered that all the directions is indeed for Himself, so that He can change the Qibla and has the right to do so.

Understood?

 

[Union]

That part means that the East and the West belong only to Allah, so that He can change the direction which He chose for Qibla at first time.

When Allah changed the Qibla, non-Muslims said that what has turned them from their qiblah which they had? If Allah chose the first Qibla, so why did He chage it. So that, Muhammad is not the Messenger of God, Who does not change His decisions.

Therefore, Allah answered that all the directions is indeed for Himself, so that He can change the Qibla and has the right to do so.

Understood?

Shouldn't that also mean that before even the assignment of the Qiblah , whatever direction they prayed , still it belonged to ALLAH .

 

[mojtaba]

I was not going to compare the Words of Almighty Allah with the sayings of the narrators.

I meant that differnt manners of narration is ordinary and it does not mean that the happening itself did not happen.

I add to this post the following.

Differnt narrations for a uniqe happening have different reasons,

1. A single narrator talks about a uniqe happening in differnt times by different sentences, which have a same meaning. The different sentences in Holy Quran about a uniqe happening is only in this category.

2. A single narrator talks about a uniqe happening in different times by different sentences which are some different in the details. This is ordinary, because the narrators are human and only Almighty God never forget and never makes mistakes.

3. Different reliable narrators talk about a uniqe happening by different sentences which differ with each other in some details of the happening. This is also ordinary, because only Almighty God never forget and never makes mistakes.

4. Liar narrators added some fake details in the original happening.

It is the duty of the scholars of the science of Hadith to study more and more and investigate hard, to find the most correct and authentic narrations.

I know scholars who have studied the science of Hadith about 70 yrs and are so expert in this field.

 

[Union]

Just to add , if it helps you in somehow in this endevour :

[010:087] We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into Qiblahs, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

It says that Almighty GOD assigned for Moses and for his people Qiblah in Egypt but it was not so sure whether that is the same Qiblah the Muslims used before Almighty GOD assigned for them AMAH .

In bigger picture :

01- The first Qiblah mentioned in Qur'an was in Egypt .
02- The second Qiblah mentioned in Qur'an was in Mecca.

 

[Union]

I add to this post the following.

Differnt narrations for a uniqe happening have different reasons,

1. A single narrator talks about a uniqe happening in differnt times by different sentences, which have a same meaning. The different sentences in Holy Quran about a uniqe happening is only in this category.

2. A single narrator talks about a uniqe happening in different times by different sentences which are some different in the details. This is ordinary, because the narrators are human and only Almighty God never forget and never makes mistakes.

3. Different reliable narrators talk about a uniqe happening by different sentences which differ with each other in some details of the happening. This is also ordinary, because only Almighty God never forget and never makes mistakes.

4. Liar narrators added some fake details in the original happening.

It is the duty of the scholars of the science of Hadith to study more and more and investigate hard, to find the most correct and authentic narrations.

I know scholars who have studied the science of Hadith about 70 yrs and are so expert in this field.

And Millions of Sunni Scholars deem Bukhari to be 100% Sahih . It contradicts for what approach you have against the adheres of Bukhari . I think your interference in this discussion is uncalled for Sunni . They obviously don't agree what you just said that narrators erred in those Ahadith .

 

[mojtaba]

Shouldn't that also mean that before even the assignment of the Qiblah , whatever direction they prayed , still it belonged to ALLAH .

No bro.
We read in the verse,
وَإِن كَانَتْ لَكَبِيرَةً إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّـهُ
It[ changing of the Qibls ] was indeed a hard thing except for those whom Allah has guided.[2:143]

This part of the verse proves that Allah had appointed a Qibla before Mecca. But, after changing, it was so hard for some ones. Indeed, they thought that, If the first dirrection was the order of Allah, Who His decisions never change, why did it changed.

Allah for removing such this incorrect thinkings said that all the directions is indeed for Himself, so that He can change the direction of the Qibla which He appointed at the first and indeed He has the right to do so.

Your saying can not explain that part of the verse.

 

[mojtaba]

And Millions of Sunni Scholars deem Bukhari to be 100% Sahih . It contradicts for what approach you have against the adheres of Bukhari . I think your interference in this discussion is uncalled for Sunni . They obviously don't agree what you just said that narrators erred in those Ahadith .

Bro, Sunni scholars are making mistake. Our scholars say to them that their opponion about the book of Bukhari is incorrect. But we do not know why they do not accept this scientific opponion of Shia scholars.

 

[Union]

No bro.
We read in the verse,
وَإِن كَانَتْ لَكَبِيرَةً إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّـهُ
It[ changing of the Qibls ] was indeed a hard thing except for those whom Allah has guided.[2:143]

This part of the verse proves that Allah had appointed a Qibla before Mecca. But, after changing, it was so hard for some ones. Indeed, they thought that, If the first dirrection was the order of Allah, Who His decisions never change, why did it changed.

Allah for removing such this incorrect thinkings said that all the directions is indeed for Himself, so that He can change the direction of the Qibla which He appointed at the first and indeed He has the right to do so.

Your saying can not explain that part of the verse.

Add that post you relpied with #54

 

[mojtaba]

Just to add , if it helps you in somehow in this endevour :

[010:087] We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into Qiblahs, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

It says that Almighty GOD assigned for Moses and for his people Qiblah in Egypt but it was not so sure whether that is the same Qiblah the Muslims used before Almighty GOD assigned for them AMAH .

In bigger picture :

01- The first Qiblah mentioned in Qur'an was in Egypt .
02- The second Qiblah mentioned in Qur'an was in Mecca.

Brother, Qibla in that verse does not mean the direction toward which the prayer should be said.

Because, that verse says,' Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings Qiblatan'

The people of Moses were many. So, there were differnt homes. Which one was the Qibla?!

That verse means,
We revealed to Moses and his brother [saying], ‘Settle your people in the Egypt, and let your houses face each other, and maintain the prayer, and give good news to the faithful.’ (87)

 

[Union]

Bro, Sunni scholars are making mistake. Our scholars say to them that their opponion about the book of Bukhari is incorrect. But we do not know why they do not accept this scientific opponion of Shia scholars.

ALLAH swt promised to preserve the Qur'an but not Hadith . Hence people did whatever they wanted to do with Hadith and ALLAH swt didn't care about that as it never the be source of Islam . Islam starts with Surah Fatiha and finished with Surah Naas .

There is also no divine measure of science of Hadith , Scholars use their own merit to judge a Hadith which they may erred . It applicable for both Sunni and Shia scholars . It also applicable for Bible , Veda , Puran etc. It is an mortal effort not suiting to describe and define divine Islam .

Qur'an is unique , one and only . It is as infallible as GOD is . Because it GOD's words , revealed by GOD and well preserved by GOD . It gives answer to each and every issue of Islam .