The Original Sin: who is to blame?

[dybmh]

Islam is a problem, not a solution.

That is a belief; it is not a fact.

 

[dybmh]

my statement that Islam is a humanitarian crisis stands.

Right or wrong; it is a belief. I yield the floor.

 

[9-18-1]

@9-18-1, Sorry. But this is another example where you are showing your beliefs.


You cannot prove that there was no potent delivery. You believe it. But it is not a fact. That is why you said "IF".

This is where you go wrong.

You can't state a "belief" then demand it be proven false. The Muhammadans do the same with their "prove the Qur'an did not come from Allah". Same degenerate logic.

This is why "belief" is not a virtue.

Please provide a source for fact checking. At this point you have demonstrated low quality research. Unless... you are asking us to **believe** you.

I don't ask/expect anyone to "believe" anything. "Belief" is not a virtue.

Source please; unless you are asking us to **believe** you, please provide a source for this claim that Jesus was replaced.

And the rest of these "Consistent with" statements: these are all conclusions based on belief. I think this is called "connecting the dots". Making little leaps of faith, following a bread crumb trail based on the **belief** that a person are on the right track.

You are connecting the dots. You may be right about all this; you may be wrong. But at this point, it's all just belief.

"Belief" is necessarily an object. What is true, is not an object. I don't place objects as true: for in their being an object disqualifies it from being true, as what is true is not an object.

Rather than 'what is G-d'?
Better is 'what is G-d not'?

Eliminating all objects until one is left with the objectless - no-thing.

How does one qualify "what is true is not an object"?
Can 'truth' simply be a pursuit (for it)?

What is 'I AM'?
An object?
Or simply 'true'?
How does one 'know' what is 'true'?
Who testifies to ones own witness?

Answer me this:
Can any testimony (of faith) involving a dead man always necessarily be true?
If no: the shahada can be a false testimony.
Qualifier?
Qur'an is not perfectly preserved (ie. shows signs of manhandling).
Islam falls to this.

Islam/Muslims can not stand this scrutiny when measured against the one of the ten commandments.

This is where the extremism on the left comes.
The extremism on the right pivots on Christianity.

Define 'idol'.
Central figure regarded as infallible.

Is an 'idol' an object?
Yes.

Holding a dead man 'idol' as infallible?
Jesus and Muhammad are both "belief"-based objects/idols.
How many dead in the name of?

"BELIEF" IS NOT A VIRTUE

 

[9-18-1]

I AM (that) I AM

Adam: 'I AM'
(that)
Eve: 'I AM'

To Bestow
(shared will)
To Receive

It is not GOOD that man is alone.
Who defines 'good'?
Who is allowed to define 'good'?
Define "eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil".

If good and evil are 'managed' by G-d "unchanging",
then any perceived polarity exists within the being.

Define 'maya'.
Illusion (relative to the observer).

'I AM'.
severed from
that I am.

What is 'that'?

tat t'vaum asi
that: you are.

Can wisdom be an object?
If no: reconcile with truth.
Are wisdom and truth one - no object?

All begins with understanding.
binah

 

[9-18-1]

Top-down approach always wins (ftw).

What is the Edenic state?
Man and woman in a garden provided for by G-d.

What does the serpent do to Eve?
666Psychology: Saw the fruit was GOOD for food. (reconcile: defining good/evil)
666Emotion: Desirable to become wise (chokmah)
666Instinct: Gave to Adam; he ate

Their eyes were opened and they realized they were naked.
Define 'naked'.
With object: bare skin (not known previously)
Without object: skin

First distinction?
Beis.

Credit to www.MERU.org et. al.

What is hidden in this string of characters?

Reconcile with bestowal/reception.
Bestowal = push/towards [Electricity (+)]
Reception = pull/inwards [Magnetism (-)]
Reconcile with el and 'eem.

Electricity and magnetism (light).

ויאמר אלהים יהי אור ויהי אור

What is 'neutral'?
What is the heh?
Womb.
Possible states?
Virgin/not virgin.
Do only women have wombs?
Why was the primordial Adam made androgynous?

Reconcile with "chastity".

Define 'Edenic state'.
מסגרת = framework/structure

Is it possible to understand/know the framework/structure of creation?

Define 'aur, ein soph'
light, without limit

Reconcile with light.

Will to Bestow (+)
Will to Receive (-)
_______________
Light

Shared Will (n)
_______________
Without End

FTW!

 

[Faithofchristian]

The discussion isn't about changing names, it is about your assertion that "Lucifer was created million(sic) of years before Adam and Eve were created".

You cannot cop out by saying I have no understanding of the first earth age. You talk about it but cannot show any basis for it in the Bible (or anywhere else). And that is what the discussion has been about: You showing justification in scripture for your assertions.

You mention the books of Ezekiel and Job. Nothing in those verses says anything about Lucifer/Satan predating Adam & Eve by a million years.

If you had taken the time to read and understand the verses you quoted, you would have seen that they say nothing about a million years or about a "First Earth Age".

Ezekiel 28
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Job 1
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
​

Are you so naive that you believed I wouldn't take the time to read the verses for myself? Are you so naive that you believed I would just take your word for it?

It's like I said if you do not have any understanding or knowledge about the first earth age, Then you will not understand how Lucifer was created back about a million years ago.

Do you understand what the first earth age consist of, what it was like.
The first earth age is where the dinosaurs bones came from

 

[9-18-1]

It's like I said if you do not have any understanding or knowledge about the first earth age, Then you will not understand how Lucifer was created back about a million years ago.

Do you understand what the first earth age consist of, what it was like.
The first earth age is where the dinosaurs bones came from

Do you actually "believe" Lucifer to be an entity?

Ignored dybmh.

This user has (made) several accounts in the past and similarly seems to (have) harass(ed) others.

If someone states something, it will always be the case that another will treat it as a "belief" until it has been "proven" to/by whatever standard the other adopts as admissible.

Doing the same thing over and over is the mark of insanity: that is exactly what this user does by trying to denote every statement as "that's a belief".

"Belief" is not a virtue - and he did not prove otherwise, but he is allowed to "believe" he did.

Unfortunately "belief" is not a virtue.

If he attacks me, he will prove himself a bold "follower". Unfortunately love/hate both require attachment.

 

[sooda]

It's like I said if you do not have any understanding or knowledge about the first earth age, Then you will not understand how Lucifer was created back about a million years ago.

Do you understand what the first earth age consist of, what it was like.
The first earth age is where the dinosaurs bones came from

Did you just make that up?

 

[sooda]

It's like I said if you do not have any understanding or knowledge about the first earth age, Then you will not understand how Lucifer was created back about a million years ago.

Do you understand what the first earth age consist of, what it was like.
The first earth age is where the dinosaurs bones came from

"What is the first earth age? Is the concept of a first earth age biblical?"

Answer: The first age of the earth, according to the theory’s proponents, was a time period prior to Genesis 1:2, when human beings existed as pre-incarnate souls.

Proponents of a first earth age also point to Genesis 1:1, Jeremiah 4:18, and 2 Peter 3 to support their claims. According to the first earth age concept, God initially created the earth many thousands or millions of years ago, but that world was corrupted by the fall of Satan.

Those who chose to remain loyal to God during that time became the “elect” mentioned in the New Testament and were promised eternal life. In many ways, the first earth age theory is similar to the Mormon teaching of spirit babies. Belief in a first earth age is a subset of the more general gap theory.

While the gap theory generally supposes that there is a long time period covered by Genesis 1:1, belief in the first earth age goes much further by presupposing the existence of human souls prior to the creation of man. Belief in a first earth age does not seem to be very prevalent, and most references to it connect it with Shepherd’s Chapel, led by Arnold Murray.

The belief is likewise connected to the false serpent seed doctrine and various levels of anti-Semitic belief. Such associations don’t determine whether it’s true or false, of course, but they do suggest that the first earth age theory be approached with caution and serious scrutiny.

The concept of a first earth age is not biblically sound for several reasons. First, it is not directly supported by the biblical text.

Proponents of the first earth age theory refer to various definitions of Greek and Hebrew words that they claim support the idea that there was a “first earth” laid waste prior to the flood.

These claims require a heavy dose of bias and do not come naturally from the text or from the definitions of the words in question. Second, and more importantly, the idea of a first earth age is contradicted by passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:46–47, which says that the physical comes prior to the spiritual; this is the opposite of the first earth age model.

What is the first earth age? Is the concept of a first earth age biblical?

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Nope as you are wrong, that is not Ezekiel saying ( Behold ) that is God who is saying
( Behold ) as telling people pay attention to what I am about to say.

It seems you have hard time in determining who's talking and who is not talking.

When God is doing the talking, God always be found in saying ( Behold ) to draw attention to what God is going to say next.

No, God doesn't always say הִנֵּ֛ה, and biblical characters say it just as much. For instance Joseph says it twice in Genesis 37:7 when he's telling his brothers about his dream of the sheaves in the field. The point is, after a "behold" you're supposed to look for gematria, and whether you want to believe the instruction is from God or Ezekiel is your own choice.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Did you just make that up?

Well it's evidence that you also that you don't understand about the first earth age.

Back during the first earth age, this is where the dinosaurs bones came from.

 

[Faithofchristian]

"What is the first earth age? Is the concept of a first earth age biblical?"

Answer: The first age of the earth, according to the theory’s proponents, was a time period prior to Genesis 1:2, when human beings existed as pre-incarnate souls.

Proponents of a first earth age also point to Genesis 1:1, Jeremiah 4:18, and 2 Peter 3 to support their claims. According to the first earth age concept, God initially created the earth many thousands or millions of years ago, but that world was corrupted by the fall of Satan.

Those who chose to remain loyal to God during that time became the “elect” mentioned in the New Testament and were promised eternal life. In many ways, the first earth age theory is similar to the Mormon teaching of spirit babies. Belief in a first earth age is a subset of the more general gap theory.

While the gap theory generally supposes that there is a long time period covered by Genesis 1:1, belief in the first earth age goes much further by presupposing the existence of human souls prior to the creation of man. Belief in a first earth age does not seem to be very prevalent, and most references to it connect it with Shepherd’s Chapel, led by Arnold Murray.

The belief is likewise connected to the false serpent seed doctrine and various levels of anti-Semitic belief. Such associations don’t determine whether it’s true or false, of course, but they do suggest that the first earth age theory be approached with caution and serious scrutiny.

The concept of a first earth age is not biblically sound for several reasons. First, it is not directly supported by the biblical text.

Proponents of the first earth age theory refer to various definitions of Greek and Hebrew words that they claim support the idea that there was a “first earth” laid waste prior to the flood.

These claims require a heavy dose of bias and do not come naturally from the text or from the definitions of the words in question. Second, and more importantly, the idea of a first earth age is contradicted by passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:46–47, which says that the physical comes prior to the spiritual; this is the opposite of the first earth age model.

What is the first earth age? Is the concept of a first earth age biblical?

The first earth age is biblical very much.

As the book of Genesis and Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah and 2 Peter and Ephesians and Revelation all speaks about the first earth age.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well it's evidence that you also that you don't understand about the first earth age.

Back during the first earth age, this is where the dinosaurs bones came from.

As @sooda pointed out, the concept of a "first earth age" is not biblically sound, but more importantly, it is scientifically perfect rubbish. So with nothing to back it up on either side, it's kind of a mystery as to why you seem to believe it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

No, God doesn't always say הִנֵּ֛ה, and biblical characters say it just as much. For instance Joseph says it twice in Genesis 37:7 when he's telling his brothers about his dream of the sheaves in the field. The point is, after a "behold" you're supposed to look for gematria, and whether you want to believe the instruction is from God or Ezekiel is your own choice.

As I didn't say God always will say
( behold)
As you can see there are circumstances that others may say ( behold)
As there many places in Ezekiel that God himself will say ( behold)

 

[Faithofchristian]

As @sooda pointed out, the concept of a "first earth age" is not biblically sound, but more importantly, it is scientifically perfect rubbish. So with nothing to back it up on either side, it's kind of a mystery as to why you seem to believe it.

It is biblical, just because people don't understand anything about the first earth age, doesn't mean it's not biblical, As I Stated in the books of Genesis, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah,
2 Peter and Revelation all speaks about the first earth age.
if I may for say, that it takes Spiritual discernment to understand the first earth age.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
1 Corinthians 2:14

Do you understand what Spiritual discernment is?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is biblical, just because people don't understand anything about the first earth age, doesn't mean it's not biblical, As I Stated in the books of Genesis, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah,
2 Peter and Revelation all speaks about the first earth age.
if I may for say, that it takes Spiritual discernment to understand the first earth age.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
1 Corinthians 2:14

Do you understand what Spiritual discernment is?

Do you understand what science ignorance is?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Do you understand what science ignorance is?

Do you understand what biblical ignorance is ?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you understand what biblical ignorance is ?

Why yes, actually, I do. But of course, I assert that by also stating that there are other scriptures, all of which you consider false because they aren't from your tradition, and all of which consider yours false because it's not from theirs. That's a pretty good definition of "scripture," by the way: the myths, fables, pseudo history and miscellaneous writings that I believe in. Of course, there are all sorts of other myths, fables, pseudo histories and miscellaneous writings that others believe in (and consider scripture) that you don't believe in, and therefore consider to be only myth, fable, pseudo history, etc.

But everything in science can be demonstrated, and when it cannot, is immediately discarded. Nothing about the Bible is ever discarded, even when it's completely absurd...which ought to tell you a lot. Here's just a simple example: does the Bible not say that God punished David for the murder of Uriah the Hittite and the adulterous intercourse with his wife Bathsheba, by arranging for the painful and lingering death of their son, the offspring of that crime? Did God kill David? No, of course not...better, in this God's sensibility, to slay an innocent child. That's preposterous, ludicrous, ugly, unforgivable...and entirely acceptable to some religious types.

And it's one of many, many things that make me revile the Bible.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Why yes, actually, I do. But of course, I assert that by also stating that there are other scriptures, all of which you consider false because they aren't from your tradition, and all of
which consider yours false because it's not from theirs. That's a pretty good definition of "scripture," by the way: the myths, fables, pseudo history and miscellaneous writings that I believe in. Of course, there are all sorts of other myths, fables, pseudo histories and miscellaneous writings that others believe in (and consider scripture) that you don't believe in, and therefore consider to be only myth, fable, pseudo history, etc.

But everything in science can be demonstrated, and when it cannot, is immediately discarded. Nothing about the Bible is ever discarded, even when it's completely absurd...which ought to tell you a lot. Here's just a simple example: does the Bible not say that God punished David for the murder of Uriah the Hittite and the adulterous intercourse with his wife Bathsheba, by arranging for the painful and lingering death of their son, the offspring of that crime? Did God kill David? No, of course not...better, in this God's sensibility, to slay an innocent child. That's preposterous, ludicrous, ugly, unforgivable...and entirely acceptable to some religious types.

And it's one of many, many things that make me revile the Bible.

First of all it seems you haven't a clue or idea why God punished king David, and it wasn't because king David killed Uriah the Hittite. As you suppose.
Maybe you should re-read it again.
God punished king David because king David turn his back on God and the commandment of God
In your eyes you think because God took the child of king David, why that awful.

But little you have no understanding or knowledge about God.
When God took the child, the child is alive with God I heaven.

Now the other question is, Seeing that David is the king over Israel, Now why would God punish king David.
All because if God did not punish king David, the people of Israel would begin to think that it must be alright to kill another man for his wife.

So by God punishing king David the people would know that it is not ok with God, to kill another man for his wife.

 

[sooda]

Well it's evidence that you also that you don't understand about the first earth age.

Back during the first earth age, this is where the dinosaurs bones came from.

Its hogwash.. just like the serpent seed nonsense.