The Original Sin: who is to blame?

[Salvador]

Are so-called "holy" scriptures necessarily true because they are holy, or are (were?) they holy because they are necessarily (observably) true? Which way does it go? What actually gives scriptures the attention and regard adherents treat them with?

Putting these questions aside, picking up after Adam hearkens unto the voice of his wife and eats the fruit, what happens?

-Both their eyes are opened and they realize they are naked
-Adam hides from god in fear for shame of his nakedness
-God approaches and inquires as to the whereabouts of Adam
-Adam emerges explaining why he hid himself
-God asks if Adam ate the fruit that was forbidden to him

Now how does Adam reply?

Genesis 3:12
ויאמר האדם האשה אשר נתתה עמדי הוא נתנה לי מן העץ ואכל
And the man said The woman whom thou gavest to be with me she gave me of the tree and I did eat

In other words: Adam did not either recognize and/or acknowledge his own iniquity before attempting to implicate the woman as having caused it. Do we see any indication (ie. religions) with which such behavior is (institutionalized, and is) still on-going on the planet? Are men blaming/shaming women and implicating them as the reason for their own iniquities?

Even as a non-theist, the problem is simple: when the lower organ (ie. sex) rules over the higher organ (ie. brain) such that the latter is subject to (ie. only operates based on) the former (re: sex), this is the same as Eve giving the fruit to Adam. The story is not literal/historical; it is describing the "origin of sin" in a symbolic way using people as archetypes for the relationship the brain has to the sex organ (in any being).

What is most depressing is this story is literally at the beginning/heart of the entire Abrahamic trilogy: Judaism/Christianity/Islam all owing their very existence to it.

Islam obviously rejects the one-man-one-woman Edenic frame of reference entirely: holding a man himself having 11 wives in his life (9 at one time: what really is 'infidelity'?) as perfect and infallible: his own adherents being allowed up to 4. Where is it written from Adam's own rib was derived 4 Eve's? It is not - else it is impossible to establish peace and harmony if not a simple 1:1 balance between man and woman (not caring to be dragged into the war on gender minefield/battlefield: there are only two biological, immutable, organ-defined male-or-female humans).

This aside, that the Torah has at least 4-5 different authors is itself catastrophic for the entire Abrahamic pantheon: if there was no potent delivery of the Torah, the Abrahamic god (incl. Christianity and Islam) are rendered null. The same central "claim" at the basis of Judaism is the same central "claim" made by Islam: "we are in possession of the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god". There are only three options:

i. Only one is correct
ii. They are both wrong and false
iii. They are both (somehow) right

This is why 100's of millions of people are dead: "belief". The problem is as described in the first few chapters of Genesis (despite it being man-made) but even those who treat it as an authority are even more ridiculous for not giving it the attention it allegedly demands.

So who is to blame? Nobody: when one realizes there is nobody left to blame except for themselves (Adam's mistake) this is the opening of the eyes of Adam. What does one do... hide in fear? Or own up? That is the choice each has to own for themselves.

People who attempt to blame their own iniquities on others are the same thing as Canaanites: psychological projection (ie. tiller of own soil) who grows enmity, hatred, desire to spill blood and kills with the jaw of an animal. The envy of seeing other people not suffering (Abel) as much as they suffer (Cain) is where socialism comes from: making everyone else suffer as those who suffer themselves. Take the example:

The HRC/DNC attempt to pin Russia collusion on POTUS when in fact it was the HRC/DNC that colluded (while spying on Trump) is precisely how this Canaanite human sacrifice works and is embedded in Judeo-Islamic tribalism mentalities (ie. "believer" vs. "unbeliever" re: accepting Muhammad as a final messenger).

It is still going on everywhere: political smears/assassinations, unfounded allegations etc. However, there is a secret key (I call it the key of Solomon): the ability to see the 'mark' of the Canaanite(s) by understanding whatever they are accusing others of, that is what they are trying to "hide" about themselves.

Don't "believe" or take my word for these, but feel free to test them yourselves: every single time you see/hear an accusation, first ask if it actually applies to the one making it. You will see it for yourself - like clockwork. Chastity takes the energy from the lower organ into the brain and enhances perception, casting a discernible glow on objects and people such that this becomes more and more noticeable over time. It is probably related to the basis of Christianity re: chastity being a requirement, but Christians themselves don't even know/practice it anyways.

According to Swedenborgianism, the system of Faith I do follow...Jesus Christ isn't considered as being a separate entity, but rather as a reflection of God's multiple levels of consciousness which is the oneness of God. There aren't 3 divine beings comprising the trinity, but rather there's one Divine Nature in which 3 aspects of God are present. Nor did Christ come in order to redeem anybody from original sin.

Jesus's family tree has a time span of 77 generations listed between his generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". ...Reference: ...(Matthew 1:1-16 & Luke 3:23-38)...and Eve as the mother of mankind Reference: ...Genesis 3:20

However, the Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations. ...Reference: Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia

There have been hundreds of generations of Native Americans between the time their common ancestry migrated from Asia until the time of Christ.
Reference: ...Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

There couldn't have been any actual "original sin" if thousands of humans have always existed in every generation throughout mankind's history.

The literal interpretation of the Genesis creation myth is hereby debunked:

Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of less than 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than 10,000 individuals. Source: ( Li, Heng, and Durbin, Richard. ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences". Nature International Weekly Journal of Science. 28 July 2001. PSMC estimate on simulated data. : Inference of human population history from individual whole-genome sequences : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

If there were the most severe population bottle-necking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments ( Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. " However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". Source: ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?". 5 April 2010. Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple? | The BioLogos Forum

Coalescence theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." Source: ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke,Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M.) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium". Genome Research. 17 April 2007 Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium

Indeed, there is ample genetic evidence that biblical Adam and Eve never actually existed.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Of course.. Jesus told John what to write.. and with very few changes ..

Revelation of John, the original Jewish version without comments

Revelation of John, the original Jewish version. Apocalypse composition, dating & authorship

Have you any idea that it is not called the Revelation of John.
But the Revelation of Christ Jesus

Revelation 1:1---"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"

Have you any idea what the commandment of God's does say about what king David did

 

[sooda]

Have you any idea that it is not called the Revelation of John.
But the Revelation of Christ Jesus

Revelation 1:1---"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"

Have you any idea what the commandment of God's does say about what king David did

I know.. and he said it was all going to happen shortly, soon , within a generation,

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

I did a little work on the gematria of this story last year. I was trying to discover the identity of the fruit:

“And the fruit of the tree which in the middle of the garden”. - Genesis 3:3
ומפרי העץ אשר בתוך ־ הגן

In my experience of the calculating art, typically the use of the words such as בְּתוֹךְ ‘middle’ or ‘’between’ denotes the function of division by 2 of the following noun, which in this case is הגן ‘garden’ 58. Therefore: 58 / 2 = 29 and when we add this to ומפרי 'and the fruit’ 336 results in 365 (days in a year).

In the rest of the verse Eve says to the serpent “God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” This is couched in mathematical metaphor with 'eating’ being ‘to subtract’ from the number while just 'touching’ is ‘to add’ to the number. But in any case the prohibition is against altering the 365 day year in any form because the light of days was divinely decreed to fall to earth in Genesis 1. The garden of Eden was situated above the earth. Therefore when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge they had to descend with the light of days to earth, and all beings that descend to earth are subject to the cycle of death and reincarnation.

When הָֽאִשָּׁ֡ה 'the woman’ 14 and לְאִישָׁ֛הּ 'to the man’ 49 is subtracted from 365 (through the eating of the fruit in 3:6) it results in 302, which when converted from base 60 to decimal = 182. 182 which is the length of days in Summer (and the sum of the name of Jacob).

365 – 45 אדם (Adam) is 320 עֵירֹ֥ם 'naked’, a state which Adam finds himself in Genesis 3:10. Conversion of 320 from base 60 to decimal gives 200 which is עֵֽינֵיכֶ֑ם 'your eyes’ 200 in Genesis 3:5, where the serpent promises Eve that their eyes shall be opened should they eat the fruit.

They are כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים 'as gods’ in the sense that have become the personifications of the Summer, and they know ט֥וֹב ‘good’ 17 + וָרָֽע ‘and evil’ 276 = 293 because their eyes have been opened. Whereas in their unenlightened state, they knew only God because 293 - 200 = 93 = 31 אל x 3, so the numerical symbolism is that they have gained the light of the Sun (the Resh 200)."
​

I think the gematria of the story clears up a few details. In Genesis 1, God creates the world and sets everything into motion. Light has its orders already given it by God (he sends it to illuminate the earth) and when Adam and Eve take some of that light they have to travel to earth too and are thus subject to death and rebirth and difficult childbirth etc. That isn't actually a punishment; its a consequence, and God's speech to them details these consequences of their errors. He's not inventing punishments on the spot and sending them to earth like naughty children. Its more like God is saying "you did X, and now Y is going to happen... I warned you!".

The ancients may have believed God created the temptations of the flesh because the letter Ayin (70) and its path on the Seven Palaces corresponds to Genesis 1:15-17 in the alphabetic acrostic;

‎15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. ‎‎16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17. ‎but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from ‎it you will surely die.”‎​

 

[Faithofchristian]

I know.. and he said it was all going to happen shortly, soon , within a generation,

What do you mean by "Within a generation"

 

[sooda]

What do you mean by "Within a generation"

“Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished” (Mt. 24:34)

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

"things that must shortly come to pass" (Rev. 1:1).

Throughout the entire book of Revelation, Jesus said He was returning soon. Or shortly. Or that He was coming quickly. In fact, if you count them you will see He used this type of phrase thirteen times, with five of them being in the last few chapters.

 

[Faithofchristian]

“Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished” (Mt. 24:34)

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

"things that must shortly come to pass" (Rev. 1:1).

Throughout the entire book of Revelation, Jesus said He was returning soon. Or shortly. Or that He was coming quickly. In fact, if you count them you will see He used this type of phrase thirteen times, with five of them being in the last few chapters.

You do know that we are that generation, of the parable of the fig tree.
That Christ Jesus spoke about in the book of Mark 13:28-30

28--"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done"

We are the last generation that shall see all those things that Christ Jesus spoken about.
Jesus Christ can not return until the last Prophecy happens first that Christ Jesus gave in the book of Revelation

 

[shunyadragon]

You do know that we are that generation, of the parable of the fig tree.
That Christ Jesus spoke about in the book of Mark 13:28-30

28--"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done"

We are the last generation that shall see all those things that Christ Jesus spoken about.

Jesus Christ can not return until the last Prophecy happens first that Christ Jesus gave in the book of Revelation

is too ambiguous to make that claim as it has been made hundreds of times in the past.

 

[dybmh]

Oh boy, here comes the Jew.

Hate speech....

And it's ad hominem:

"Ad Hominem is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

it's not hate speech, unless you hate yourself?

When you said, "Oh boy, here comes the Jew." It wasn't meant as a compliment. And it wasn't meant to be neutral. It was meant as an insult.

Your credibility in this thread is null. And this feeble attempted claim of ignorance is putting your integrity into the negative.

I suggest that if you want to talk about politics... you post in the politics forum next time. I think almost everyone who reads your OP will see, that really it's a political discussion dressed up in shreds of religious language.

 

[Thief]

-Both their eyes are opened and they realize they are naked
-Adam hides from god in fear for shame of his nakedness
-God approaches and inquires as to the whereabouts of Adam
-Adam emerges explaining why he hid himself
-God asks if Adam ate the fruit that was forbidden to him

it is not a reference to the nakedness of the flesh

Adam has come to realize.....he cannot hide his thoughts or feelings

neither can you

 

[Faithofchristian]

is too ambiguous to make that claim as it has been made hundreds of times in the past.

That maybe so, according to man's teachings, but I'm not into going by what man's teachings will say, But what Christ Jesus has to say on the matter.

As during the past, Israel wasn't recognized as a nation until 1948, Which is the start of what Christ Jesus given as the parable of the fig tree, As to when all those things start to happen that will concern the Temple mount in Jerusalem.
As Christ Jesus givenI In the book of
Mark 13:28-30.

Now if you notice Christ Jesus saying Now learn the parable of the fig tree, As Christ Jesus didn't say, maybe you should learn No Christ Jesus plainly said, Now learn the parable of the fig tree.

28--"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done"

 

[9-18-1]

I did a little work on the gematria of this story last year. I was trying to discover the identity of the fruit:

“And the fruit of the tree which in the middle of the garden”. - Genesis 3:3
ומפרי העץ אשר בתוך ־ הגן

In my experience of the calculating art, typically the use of the words such as בְּתוֹךְ ‘middle’ or ‘’between’ denotes the function of division by 2 of the following noun, which in this case is הגן ‘garden’ 58. Therefore: 58 / 2 = 29 and when we add this to ומפרי 'and the fruit’ 336 results in 365 (days in a year).

In the rest of the verse Eve says to the serpent “God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” This is couched in mathematical metaphor with 'eating’ being ‘to subtract’ from the number while just 'touching’ is ‘to add’ to the number. But in any case the prohibition is against altering the 365 day year in any form because the light of days was divinely decreed to fall to earth in Genesis 1. The garden of Eden was situated above the earth. Therefore when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge they had to descend with the light of days to earth, and all beings that descend to earth are subject to the cycle of death and reincarnation.

When הָֽאִשָּׁ֡ה 'the woman’ 14 and לְאִישָׁ֛הּ 'to the man’ 49 is subtracted from 365 (through the eating of the fruit in 3:6) it results in 302, which when converted from base 60 to decimal = 182. 182 which is the length of days in Summer (and the sum of the name of Jacob).

365 – 45 אדם (Adam) is 320 עֵירֹ֥ם 'naked’, a state which Adam finds himself in Genesis 3:10. Conversion of 320 from base 60 to decimal gives 200 which is עֵֽינֵיכֶ֑ם 'your eyes’ 200 in Genesis 3:5, where the serpent promises Eve that their eyes shall be opened should they eat the fruit.

They are כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים 'as gods’ in the sense that have become the personifications of the Summer, and they know ט֥וֹב ‘good’ 17 + וָרָֽע ‘and evil’ 276 = 293 because their eyes have been opened. Whereas in their unenlightened state, they knew only God because 293 - 200 = 93 = 31 אל x 3, so the numerical symbolism is that they have gained the light of the Sun (the Resh 200)."
​

I think the gematria of the story clears up a few details. In Genesis 1, God creates the world and sets everything into motion. Light has its orders already given it by God (he sends it to illuminate the earth) and when Adam and Eve take some of that light they have to travel to earth too and are thus subject to death and rebirth and difficult childbirth etc. That isn't actually a punishment; its a consequence, and God's speech to them details these consequences of their errors. He's not inventing punishments on the spot and sending them to earth like naughty children. Its more like God is saying "you did X, and now Y is going to happen... I warned you!".

The ancients may have believed God created the temptations of the flesh because the letter Ayin (70) and its path on the Seven Palaces corresponds to Genesis 1:15-17 in the alphabetic acrostic;

‎15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. ‎‎16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17. ‎but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from ‎it you will surely die.”‎​

Very interesting thank you - I wonder if the halving and maintaining (not eating (-) or touching (+)) has any relation to the balancing of the genders.

When you said, "Oh boy, here comes the Jew." It wasn't meant as a compliment. And it wasn't meant to be neutral. It was meant as an insult.

Correct - it was not meant as a compliment. However it is a neutral statement - there is nothing to be insulted about being a Jew. If you are reading it that way, I am sorry.

Your credibility in this thread is null. And this feeble attempted claim of ignorance is putting your integrity into the negative.

Lol!

My only regard for "credibility" is what do Jews claim, and is it true? That is where credibility starts. If the Jews claims something that is not true, credibility starts there.

The Torah has at least 4 independent authors, underwent modifications/redactions, yet Jews still claim it is the perfect word of god? Do the Jews not realize that this *false* claim has lead to the rise of Islam: they too claiming that "they" are in possession of the perfect word of god?

Claim: "We are in possession of the perfect, unaltered, inerrant word of god."
Held by: Jews (re: Torah) and Muslims (re: Qur'an).
Problem: Same claim / different book.

And the false claim began with the Jews.

Therefor the statement you just uttered above is actually applied to you, and only you. Until you get over the "Torah came from god" notion, you are collapsed in this ignorance.

I suggest that if you want to talk about politics... you post in the politics forum next time. I think almost everyone who reads your OP will see, that really it's a political discussion dressed up in shreds of religious language.

In the same way Islam is a political state dressed up in shreds of religious language?

Can you please direct me to the forum / sub-forum that talks about religio-political issues which involve religions that has 0 division between church and state?

There is no separation between church and state in Islam: Muhammad's politics was his religion, and his religion became 100% political by the end.

By the way, Muhammad tried to convince the Jews he was the "messiah" they had been waiting for. The Jews (rightfully) rejected him. This establishes the precedent upon which Muhammad resented Jews: they did not accept him. This lead to what? When Muhammad became 100% political, he committed genocide against Jews.

Fast toward to Nazi Germany: what was happening to Jews? Do you know where that comes from?

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Muhammad became increasingly hostile to the Jews over time as he "perceived that there were irreconcilable differences between their religion and his, especially when the belief in his prophetic mission became the criterion of a true Moslem."[16] When the Jewish community challenged "the way in which the Koran appropriated Biblical accounts and personages; for instance, its making Abraham an Arab and the founder of the Ka‘bah at Mecca" Muhammad viewed it as a personal attack and in turn "accused them of intentionally concealing its true meaning or of entirely misunderstanding it, and taunted them with being."

The entire persecution against Jews began with Muhammad. The entire global antisemitic problem starts with Muhammad.

And here I am finding the root cause of why Jews are being persecuted. I am not your enemy - the enemy is "belief" in things that are not true, including the so-called veracity of the claims:

Claim: "We are in possession of the perfect, unaltered, inerrant word of god."
Held by: Jews (re: Torah) and Muslims (re: Qur'an).
Problem: Same claim / different book.

The Jews have the potential to end this global war: they need to come clean about the Torah and force the Muslims to likewise test the veracity of the Qur'an. Just the entire notion that one is in possession of the perfect word of god came from Judaism. This "idea" needs to be addressed because it is of Judeo(-Islamic) origin.

If not: WW3 and bloodshed. There are no two ways around it.

I am not your enemy - just hoping you understand where your own barrier is as you point me mine - a nice transaction, if even you are in enmity. I know you are smart, but personal attachments (and Jew discomfort / taking offense) are a boundary.

it is not a reference to the nakedness of the flesh

Adam has come to realize.....he cannot hide his thoughts or feelings

neither can you

It wouldn't be visible on plain-text, but generally it is true in person.

All except the mustard seed.

Nobody can otherwise - therefor you will know my thoughts and feelings are with the women of the world who are being abused/raped based on a demonstrably and invariably man-made book and 'model' man that did similar to the women of his own day, including pedophilia/rape. That is the only reason I endeavored to learn anything about religion: it is related to the sexual degeneracy / rape / pedophilia problem on the planet.

I find consciousness eventually (necessarily) is willingly arrived at and/or collapses into one of two questions:

What is one willing to live for?
What is one willing to die for?

When a single answer that satisfies both is found, welcome to the mountain: no more hiding from it, as 'it' is what we all become according to choice: conscience + choice = consciousness.

What does one choose? <- *the problem is choice itself

I call this the 'mustard seed' - that one thing one keeps locked away such that nobody can see/defile it. When the entirety of the being is placed into this single seed, something magical happens. Parable of Jesus is a good one:

He set another man before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches."

He said, “How will we liken the Kingdom of God? Or with what parable will we illustrate it? It’s like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, though it is less than all the seeds that are on the earth, yet when it is sown, grows up, and becomes greater than all the herbs, and puts out great branches, so that the birds of the sky can lodge under its shadow.”

He said, “What is the Kingdom of God like? To what shall I compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and put in his own garden. It grew, and became a large tree, and the birds of the sky lodged in its branches.”

 

[dybmh]

@9-18-1,

whatever you say, bud. i value discussion with you about as much as i value discussion with a politician.

you have your talking points; and you are looking for opportunities to trot them out.

you don't know my beliefs. and even if I shared them with you; i don't think you would listen.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

My only regard for "credibility" is what do Jews claim, and is it true? That is where credibility starts.

@ 9-18-1
One of the things I love about the Jewish people is that if you ask 1,000 Jewish people for an answer to a question you'll get 1,000 different answers. The community is extremely diverse. If there's a Jew out there claiming something, there's another Jew out there disputing them with a different opinion. There are many forms of Judaism and many political opinions held by Jews, and therefore when you start about "what do Jews claim?" as if they were a uniform singular entity or mono-culture... well, racism starts with identification and demonisation of the 'other'.

 

[9-18-1]

@9-18-1,

whatever you say, bud. i value discussion with you about as much as i value discussion with a politician.

I don't know how you value politicians. To me they are still people, and I enjoy talking to people esp. those who I disagree with or disagree with me.

you have your talking points; and you are looking for opportunities to trot them out.

Not for any other reason to see how people react - it always interests me to see how others see things.

you don't know my beliefs. and even if I shared them with you; i don't think you would listen.

It doesn't matter anyways: "belief" is not a virtue.

I don't care what people "believe" - hundreds of millions are dead because of "belief". There is no virtue in it at all.

Truth is not an object: but when a particular belief stands in place of truth as an object, the same represents that person's bind(s).

In the case of Judaism: that the Torah was delivered to a Hebrew Moses (was actually an Egyptian) by a god and is the perfect word of god, is false.

So you are right: I would not listen.

@ 9-18-1
One of the things I love about the Jewish people is that if you ask 1,000 Jewish people for an answer to a question you'll get 1,000 different answers. The community is extremely diverse.

That is not always a good thing. If you ask those 1000 Jewish people if Moses was a prophet of god, they will tell you yes - otherwise they are not a Jew.

If there's a Jew out there claiming something, there's another Jew out there disputing them with a different opinion. There are many forms of Judaism and many political opinions held by Jews, and therefore when you start about "what do Jews claim?" as if they were a uniform singular entity or mono-culture... well, racism starts with identification and demonisation of the 'other'.

Wow what a stupid response: trying to place the race card?

Forget Jews - Jew is not even a race. Semitic is a race. I don't care about Jews or race: I care about what the central claim of Judaism is. Moses receives the Torah from god on a mountain. If true: no change. If false: Judaism is false. It is false: that is all I care about.

So Judaism and Islam both make the same claim regarding their own book being perfect. This is not a "racial" problem (until you tried to make it one).

Very disappointing people still struggle to understand what "racism" is.

By the way, nobody is "demonizing" Jews. I don't distinguish Jews from Muslims (or Christians re: "belief"-based state): they both "believe" things that are not true, hence "race" is completely irrelevant.

Unfortunately some people like to hide behind charges of "racism" despite it not being the issue at all. Are you aware the OIC is trying to make the UN globally legislate that criticisms of Islam is "racism"? What race is Islam?

This is the stupidity plaguing the world - very sad to see it here, too. What is next, "hate speech" accusations?

Person A states a fact.
Person B hates this fact and accuses Person A of "hate speech".

That the Torah and Qur'an are man-made is a fact - what people "believe" actually does not matter and only reveals their own "hatred" if/when directed at the one who states it.

This is the kind of backwards mentality present in Islam: blame everyone else for ones own crime: "Islamophobe", "racist", "bigot"; it's the Jews! Christians! Unbelievers! Atheists! Homosexuals! White Nationalism/Supremacism!

Fascism, fascism, fascism - all a product of Islam and their inability to handle criticisms. Both Muhammad and Hitler resorted to committing genocide against Jews... why?

If anything I am more inclined to have sympathy for Jews given how Muhammadans constantly scapegoat them for literally everything. But no... I am the "racist"... lol.

C'est la vie - people will only project their own hatred onto the person stirring it up within them. Thank you dybmh for helping me understand that - really gives the show away

 

[Thief]

What is one willing to live for?
What is one willing to die for?

and that was the choice of pivot …..in the garden

they chose to partake

they past the test

 

[dybmh]

That is not always a good thing. If you ask those 1000 Jewish people if Moses was a prophet of god, they will tell you yes - otherwise they are not a Jew.

false claim

 

[dybmh]

@9-18-1,

whether or not the Torah is man made is irrelevant to me.

this is what puts your words in the category of preaching... i literally don't care.

i am fully aware and accept the facts, the scholarship, and academics that support the idea that the Torah was written by people.

But that doesn't supersede G-d.

But like i said, it's all irrelevant.

Do you appreciate talking to door-to-door sales people who want to sell you stuff you don't need and appears to be a low quality product?

I doubt it.

That is what it is like talking to you in this thread.

It's like talking to a door-to-door salesperson trying to sell me a product I don't need.

I've already got this stuff covered, why are you preaching to me?

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Wow what a stupid response: trying to place the race card?

I put it on the table. You picked it up. If I think you are a racist I'll let you know directly though. At the moment I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and I'm privately putting your ill-advised comments down to a common cognitive distortion called "splitting". Worse, I'm even daring to suspect this about you even though I'm not a qualified psychiatrist. (*gasp*) Its probably in bad taste to tell you that, but hey - I'm a philosopher. What'cha gonna do?

Forget Jews - Jew is not even a race. Semitic is a race. I don't care about Jews or race: I care about what the central claim of Judaism is.

So according to you the central claim of Judaism is that Moses received the Torah from YHVH on a mountain? Why is that the central claim of Judaism? Why do you feel that Judaism has or requires a central claim? I dispute you btw, and offer the counter-proposal that the central claim of Judaism (if there is such a thing) is the existence of YHVH, since the worship of YHVH precedes the story of the reception of the Torah on the mount. But I'm sure if we canvas opinion, we will soon end up with a diverse list of "central claims" that could all apply nicely to Judaism, so my question stands: Why do you feel that Judaism has or requires a central claim?

So Judaism and Islam both make the same claim regarding their own book being perfect. This is not a "racial" problem (until you tried to make it one).

Do they really? Perhaps what you think is literally true is just normal hyperbole? How do you tell the difference between them?
Hyperbole - Wikipedia

That the Torah and Qur'an are man-made is a fact - what people "believe" actually does not matter and only reveals their own "hatred" if/when directed at the one who states it.

So you think most people aren't sophisticated enough to understand the concept of divine inspiration? Or that two things or more can be true at the same time? Maybe you're projecting?

This is the kind of backwards mentality present in Islam...

Oh, I think if you really want to find backwards mentality its pretty much present everywhere in the world and in every community, but its not the only flavour of sauce in town nor even the most numerous.

 

[9-18-1]

and that was the choice of pivot …..in the garden

they chose to partake

they past the test

Yay, someone else sees it!

The pivot of good and evil... choice.

Death = nobody / nothing else to blame but ones own choices.

false claim

Find me a single Jew who denies Moses was a prophet of god please.

Otherwise this is nonsense and I think you know this.

@9-18-1,

whether or not the Torah is man made is irrelevant to me.

You are not all of Judaism.

this is what puts your words in the category of preaching... i literally don't care.

Then why are you here? You are free to walk.

i am fully aware and accept the facts, the scholarship, and academics that support the idea that the Torah was written by people.

Yes; but let's not leave out there is no reason to tack on some "inspired".

The work of Stan Tenen you picked up demonstrates the language of Hebrew is something quite special in and of itself.

But that doesn't supersede G-d.

Don't speak the name! Even in English! Lol.

GOD doesn't even have a meaning. It's three English letters.

El-ha'eem is prettier anyways (despite El being a Canaanite god the Jews imbued into what Akhunatun brought over): like a beautiful equation: will to bestow (through womb) will to receive.

Perfection!

But like i said, it's all irrelevant.

Hevel hevel'eem.

Do you appreciate talking to door-to-door sales people who want to sell you stuff you don't need and appears to be a low quality product?

I'd probably try to strike up a conversation with the salesman and learn about them as a person. If I like them and things are cordial, I'd buy their merchandise even if it was low quality and thank them for their time.

I doubt it.

You want to doubt it - it suits your disposition. You are probably reading my tone according to your own disposition. I have nothing against you - in fact I told you that you are smart, and I know that to be true.

What you don't realize is I'm smirking the entire time - eventually you'll snap out of it. I only help you see how your own inner insecurities are affecting your disposition.

You know, emotions and stuff. Abraham had to leave the city of Ur of the Chaldees (governed by the moon goddess sin - governs emotions). He told his wife to tell Pharaoh that she is his sister instead of his wife, else they'll kill him to take her. She goes, Pharaoh's house is plagued, and gives her back and gives them leave.

Morale: when you try to pass of your emotions as spirit, mind goes nuts.

GET OUT OF THE LAND OF YOUR KINDRED

That is what it is like talking to you in this thread.

Then why are you still here lol.

It's like talking to a door-to-door salesperson trying to sell me a product I don't need.

...and you stand at the door and keep talking to them. Brilliant!

I've already got this stuff covered, why are you preaching to me?

Because you love it.