The Paradox of Atheism and God

[ChristineM]

I formerly considered myself non-theist due to thinking that the ideas surrounding atheism could be conceptualized and discussed openly, but now I changed my mind to agnostic, realizing that atheism is a specific position that hides behind a definition and neither wants praise nor criticism or scrutiny, but that being said, I still deeply apologize for any offense taken, especially at myself going to lengths to describe what I saw in most atheists.

As for brownie points, let it land where it may.

Atheism does not hide behind a definition, atheism is the definition. Sorry you don't understand that.
What you see in most atheists may come naturally to atheists but anything other than disbelief in gods is not atheism.
And if you want to make threads bending and breaking a mode of life then please be good enough to take criticism from those you abuse

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

And if you want to make threads bending and breaking a mode of life then please be good enough to take criticism from those you abuse

Understood. And I'd say that I am. Two ways I'm doing that is:

1). Agreeing to the criticisms of me (in general) without saying bad things about the others in return.

2). Not trying to break your last post down to its every word, in some dominant and disturbed fashion.

I even admit that in making the OP, it seems I wasn't seeing eye to eye with some others.

 

[sun rise]

but what if atheism is actually the path to God? What if God exists, but not in the way that most religions claim? What if God is not a personal being, but a transcendent reality that can only be experienced through reason, logic, and evidence?

I'm going back to the OP because of a quote from the sufi Abu Sa'id

To those who seek truth in conventionalized religion:​

Until college and minaret have crumbled​

this holy work of ours will not be done.​

Until faith becomes rejection​

And rejection becomes belief​

There will be no true believer.​

​

The first part of the quote speaks to "what most religions claim" and asserts that those claims are to be rejected. The second speaks to what constitutes a true believer which is beyond conventional religion.

My journey has involved both head and heart. My head, intellect, has been essential. To satisfy myself I had to construct a chain of logic starting with "If there is a God then" "if God is truly loving then" and continuing until I reached a conclusion I could accept.

But to me the transcendent reality cannot be experienced through the intellect.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

@ChristineM -

I realized that I should probably try to explain the intent of the OP a bit better. I was mostly asking philosophical questions, though something that could have been avoided is me trying to define atheism.

I realize that some atheists would probably rather that no God exists. But I sought to ask the question of, if that God exists, then who's to say he's on the side of theists?

Even asking that, I realize that it wasn't real clear either, though.

 

[Heyo]

I still deeply apologize for any offense taken, especially at myself going to lengths to describe what I saw in most atheists.

No offence taken. Who would if praised with what most of us are striving for (rationality, morality)? But truth is more important. And the truth is that it isn't our atheism that makes us rational and moral, it's our humanity. Atheism doesn't stand in the way of those and for some it is related but it doesn't have to be. People can be total jerks and be atheists. Some are.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

No offence taken. Who would if praised with what most of us are striving for (rationality, morality)? But truth is more important. And the truth is that it isn't our atheism that makes us rational and moral, it's our humanity. Atheism doesn't stand in the way of those and for some it is related but it doesn't have to be. People can be total jerks and be atheists. Some are.

All that being said, I think I got a little ahead of myself, too. I tried to say things about atheists, without putting myself not just in my own shoes at the time - but in the shoes of other atheists.

I think if atheism was truly for me, we wouldn't even really run into this particular problem, much. So my choices are now find the correct definition for my ideas, or display overwhelming proof that others have it wrong (which I don't have).

 

[Quintessence]

You pretty much described how things went for me.

Raised Catholic for a few years, it was a terrible fit, concluded theism was stupid and religion was stupid.

Went atheist for a decade and change and thought all there was to theism was what the dominant religion of my culture had to say about it.

Eventually realized that was wrong, did my homework, and figured out theology is actually a great deal more complicated than I'd thought.

Been theist ever since.

Don't let anyone tell you what the gods are but you.

 

[ChristineM]

@ChristineM -

I realized that I should probably try to explain the intent of the OP a bit better. I was mostly asking philosophical questions, though something that could have been avoided is me trying to define atheism.

I realize that some atheists would probably rather that no God exists. But I sought to ask the question of, if that God exists, then who's to say he's on the side of theists?

Even asking that, I realize that it wasn't real clear either, though.

It's not a point of rather, it's a point of evidence and lack of evidence. The whole point of atheism is that no gods exist to mess with your life, you live it the best you can without the imaginary crutch. In my view its a great improvement on the alternative.

You may believe whatever you want about gods, just don't paint another belief with your own beliefs.

If gods do exist and can be proven to exist then atheism comes to an end making the op moot.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I rewrote the OP a bit. It still isn't perfect, but it's rewritten now to be a bit softer, and not try to define atheism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Prove it.

It's just a definition.
There is no proof of a label used to describe something.
And that label applies to me, ie, I don't believe in gods,
fairies, demons, God, Allah, Cthulhu, Thor, sprites, & Santa.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

There is no proof of a label used to describe something.

Why not?

 

[Yokefellow]

...but what is hell?

According to Wikipedia, Hell can be place where people go to be reincarnated...

"...religions with reincarnation usually depict a hell as an intermediary period between incarnations"

Hell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Coincidentally, that is precisely what the Bible teaches.

Is it a literal place of fire and torment, or is it a metaphor for the suffering and despair that we create for ourselves and others?

Both.

Is hell something that God imposes on us, or something that we impose on ourselves?

Both

Is hell eternal, or can it be overcome?

Since Hell is part of the process of reincarnation, the answer would be yes. Hell can be overcome.

By rejecting the false and harmful notions of God that are propagated by some religions, atheists may be closer to the true nature of God than those who blindly follow them.

Amen. I see this on a daily basis.

By seeking truth and knowledge through reason and evidence, atheists "may" potentially be able to glimpse the divine order and beauty of the universe.

Indeed! I have learned much about the Bible by listening to non-believers. They often have a way of pointing out the flaws of Church dogma that is second to none.

By living morally and ethically without fear or coercion, atheists may be able to express the love and kindness that are the essence of God. In my opinion.

Yep. Many Atheists are better at living a sin-free life than your average hypocritical Christian.

This is a most excellent thread @PoetPhilosopher !

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

This is a most excellent thread @PoetPhilosopher !

It's a bit better now than what it was before the edit when I had it up.

And for that, I have to thank @ChristineM and @Heyo

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

It's not a point of rather, it's a point of evidence and lack of evidence. The whole point of atheism is that no gods exist to mess with your life, you live it the best you can without the imaginary crutch. In my view its a great improvement on the alternative.

You may believe whatever you want about gods, just don't paint another belief with your own beliefs.

If gods do exist and can be proven to exist then atheism comes to an end making the op moot.

Forgive me for making an assumption, but it seems the general mindset of atheists is to focus on proofs.

However, I'm very much a philosopher thinker. So it's important to me to ask the what-if questions, even if those questions are "If you decked an elephant out to look exactly like a unicorn, would you still call it an elephant? Would others?"

 

[Link]

If gods do exist and can be proven to exist then atheism comes to an end making the op moot.

Atheism coming to an end, as a proof gods don't exist. Why doesn't the other way work, if there is no proofs for gods, theism would come to an end?

 

[Kfox]

Some people may think that atheism is the rejection of God, but what if atheism could actually incidentally end up the path to God? What if God exists, but not in the way that most religions claim? What if God is not a personal being, but a transcendent reality that can only be experienced through reason, logic, and evidence? Something which some atheists seem to be very familiar with.

Some people may say that atheists are doomed to hell for not following the Bible, but what is hell? Is it a literal place of fire and torment, or is it a metaphor for the suffering and despair that we create for ourselves and others? Is hell something that God imposes on us, or something that we impose on ourselves? Is hell eternal, or can it be overcome?

Perhaps hell is just especially real if one makes it a fear of theirs and a mental reality. Perhaps hell is the result of ignorance, hatred, and violence. Perhaps hell is the absence of love, compassion, and peace. Perhaps hell is not something that awaits us after death, but something that we experience in life.

If that is the case, then atheism may very well be the path to God. By rejecting the false and harmful notions of God that are propagated by some religions, atheists may be closer to the true nature of God than those who blindly follow them. By seeking truth and knowledge through reason and evidence, atheists "may" potentially be able to glimpse the divine order and beauty of the universe. By living morally and ethically without fear or coercion, atheists may be able to express the love and kindness that are the essence of God. In my opinion.

Maybe God does not care about what we believe, but about what we do. Maybe God does not want us to worship him, but to respect him. Maybe God does not demand our obedience, but our freedom.

Maybe atheism is not fully the rejection of God, but may end up one of many paths to the discovery of God.

If all God wants is for us to be good, and if he has no consequences for those who do bad, he sounds rather meaningless. Good people don’t need a God to do the good they already want to do, and bad people aren’t prevented from doing the bad they want to do. If such a God did exist, his existence sounds rather meaningless to me.

 

[ChristineM]

Some people may think that atheism is the rejection of God, but what if atheism could actually incidentally end up the path to God?

The word itself a-theism is Greek for without gods. So what you are trying to do here is an oxymoron

Some people may say that atheists are doomed to hell for not following the Bible

Interestingly, the image people have of hell is derived from the works of Dante Alighieri and Hieronymus Bosch. I get quite the excited when a Christian threatens me with an epic comedy poem and works of art.

but what is hell? Is it a literal place of fire and torment

See above

Perhaps hell is the result of ignorance, hatred, ...

You got that right

Maybe atheism is not fully the rejection of God

It's fully the disbelief or lack if belief in gods

but may end up one of many paths to the discovery of God.

Nah, doesn't work like that.

 

[Kfox]

Atheism coming to an end, as a proof gods don't exist.

No; Atheism coming to an end if proof that Gods DO exist

Why doesn't the other way work, if there is no proofs for gods, theism would come to an end?

Theism would come to an end if there is proof that Gods DON'T exist.

 

[ChristineM]

Atheism coming to an end, as a proof gods don't exist. Why doesn't the other way work, if there is no proofs for gods, theism would come to an end?

An atheist is more accepting of evidence. If falsifiable evidence of god's is shown then most atheists would investigate and in all probability would need to accept it.
Whereas theists have had thousands of years of no evidence and still believe

 

[Link]

Maybe atheism is not fully the rejection of God, but may end up one of many paths to the discovery of God.

My view is I agree it has that potential.

It can if you do good towards poor and feed hungry or do not deny day of judgment/hell or do not waste your time in vain discourse. Then you will be lead towards God in my view.

If you don't go out of your way to deny the day of judgment and it's hiddenness in in this world and manifestation, it will become clear.

If you go all out to help the poor, hungry and oppressed, you will try to find a cause for justice and you will create enough light in yourself to see God through t hat.

If you spend time wisely searching for truth and read and dialogue truthfully, instead of going into vain discourses with those who go into that, you will find the wise people and wisdom will be held by you.

Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes), 35A warning to mortals, 36To him among you who wishes to go forward or remain behind. 37Every soul is held in pledge for what it earns, 38Except the people of the right hand, 39In gardens, they shall ask each other 40About the guilty: 41What has brought you into hell? 42They shall say: We were not of those who prayed; 43And we used not to feed the poor; 44And we used to enter into vain discourse with those who entered into vain discourses. 45And we used to call the day of judgment a lie; 46Till death overtook us. 47So the intercession of intercessors shall not avail them. 48What is then the matter with them, that they turn away from the admonition 49As if they were asses taking fright 50That had fled from a lion? 51Nay; every one of them desires that he may be given pages spread out; 52Nay! but they do not fear the hereafter. 53Nay! it is surely an admonition. 54So whoever pleases may mind it. 55And they will not mind unless Allah please. He is worthy to be feared and worthy to forgive.

I omitted prayer has a potential, because I don't expect atheists do that. But rest, if you can, per Quran, you will be lead to paradise (and you will find God).

The phrase "and" means all those together are needed to go to hell. Omission of any will lead to paradise (and God).