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The Paradox of Atheism and God

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
But isn't your complaint based on the idea that people can't or won't decide to change their beliefs? And that cultural or religious indoctrination is somehow involuntarily being imposed on a society?
That is one complaint - that which is instilled into children will often and usually stick, especially when it is something so serious as to such beliefs. All I'm asking for is a delay to such education so as for people to be able to decide what to believe rather than being pressured into such - and where culture or peer pressure often will do the job anyway when such is expected - as in so many countries. How can Muslims justify apostasy for example?
Your rationale is not the pinnacle of rationality. People choose to stay with the religions they were given, or not to. As evidenced by those who choose not to. And they both have their 'rationale'. So maybe instead of complaining about their choices, you should consider that they are being rational, but that you've never bothered to understand their rationale ... or respect their right to it.
Really - is it that simple? You really think that most people do actually do much serious thinking as to how their religious beliefs were formed, the validity of such beliefs, as to what alternatives are out there, and as to any options available? With all the various beliefs available. Especially in countries where particular religious beliefs are overwhelmingly the norm - even if these differ from other countries. I think you are being far too generous towards the majority. But then I'm not sure statistics would tell the whole story anyway.

Hopefully there are not too many of them about but we have had an example in the last week or so of one who thinks that 6000 years is about right for the age of our existence, and coming from a religious belief that cannot be admitted as being ridiculous even though it blatantly is. Why would we inflict this on children?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Most people don't change their eating habits, or their style of dress, or their choice in entertainment, or pretty much anything else they were taught to do or think growing up in a specific culture. Because they're happy enough with these things to not be compelled to change them.

Nor is there any reason that they shouldn't be. I really don't see why this is such an issue for atheists to understand or accept.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe some atheists have taken the path of reason to the living God of the Bible but it requires an honest view of the reasoning and it would appear that most atheists have an a priori way of reasoning about God.
It seems that you are confusing terms. They're atheists because they are critical thinkers and empiricists. Knowledge come from properly understanding the implications of the evidence of the senses according to a prescribed set of rules of inference - the same ones used in academia, in a court of law, and in scientific peer review.

As for that being an a priori way of reasoning, it's a skill that needs to be learned to possess it. There's a passive and prelinguistic form of reasoning children and animals do based in experience and a set of preferences and aversions, and when children acquire language, they can articulate their experiential reasoning, like where to get a good cheeseburger.

But there is another way of thinking that as I said needs to be learned, one that allows one to evaluate arguments for soundness including arguments for gods. Once one does that, he understands that god beliefs can only be held by faith, and if the critical thinker is committed to avoiding accumulating false and unfalsifiable beliefs, he is by default an agnostic atheist.
the notion that atheists know more about the OT than than religious adherents who study it can still be accurately described as myth
Agreed, but also, the notion that the motivated (zealous) reader of scripture has extra insight into the meanings of those words is a falsehood. The skeptic need never defer to the self-proclaimed expertise of the believer when their opinions differ. Good examples include the interpretation of biblical myths and the fulfillment of prophecy. We each decide for ourselves what to make of all of that.
What do Atheist believe, which is higher than themselves?
That's a religious notion based in the psychology that a god exists that outranks them. This atheistic humanist doesn't think in such terms. There are things bigger and more powerful that I am, like the sun, but I don't think of it as my superior. I am an autonomous moral agent limited by the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, and psychology, but I also don't think of such things in terms of superiority, just magnitude and power

there is no "external reality" that can be accessed or assessed except through me: the subject of the term 'subjective reality'. Which is the antithesis of 'objective reality'. Such that the only reality any of us can ever access or assess is subjective.
The empiricist understands that. When he refers to objective knowledge, it is a relative term referring to that which can be known through the senses and understood by the reasoning faculty, that is, which qualities are reproducible in experience and which ideas allow one to reliably predicts outcomes. That's what mind can do, and that's what the empiricist is doing and calling knowledge.
you don't know what the universe is, or does. You just choose to believe you do. And you are doggedly determined to keep believing it, even though you can't actually know it to be so.
We can know how it appears and we can learn to use that knowledge profitably. The myth is that one need know more than that, that empiricism and knowledge gained through it is insufficient. It's not. The myth is that if one doesn't know everything, he knows nothing. The myth is that whatever goes on outside of consciousness is more important than how it is experienced by a subject.
objectivity is a sacred myth to the materialist, and why you fight so hard to maintain it as the truth
There's no fight or struggle there. Naturalism works. Empiricism works. It's the untethered thinker who lets his imagination tell him what is true that has to struggle to maintain his chosen beliefs if they contradict reality. Think of the creationists, the vaccine deniers, the election integrity deniers, and the climate deniers. That's who has to struggle to maintain an illusion of self-correctness, but not the empiricist.
Theism is an innate concept within the human experience.
Abrahamic monotheism is an outlier. Most religion has been earth-based, with gods being symbols for natural phenomena like the rain and suffering. Theism as most Westerners understand it is Christianity and related religions (Judaism and Islam), and that kind of mindset and worldview is not innate to humanity. It's also been destructive exporting the sacred from nature and investing it in a ghost that exists outside of nature, has no respect for nature, and issues commands and threats to mankind through spokespeople.
I think people believe what they want to believe, and no one can stop them, or make them.
People are born defenseless against indoctrination, and most never learn the method that prevents it. The church understands this, which is why it is so anxious to get to children before they can defend themselves from religious indoctrination, and why it promotes stagnation in the childlike mindset of magical thinking and accepting dogma uncritically. Look at the effort the church made to get prayer and creationism back into public schools. As Aristotle said, “Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.”
the vast majority of humans globally, and throughout history, have felt exactly that need.
And they are the worse off for having such a need. The one to envy is the one who is comfortable living outside of religions and is comfortable free of a god belief.
assuming that people pass on beliefs culturally that they don't need or want or agree with is what's weak-minded.
Assuming that most feel qualified to decide such things for themselves is the naivete. Most people acquire all of their information passively, whether through experience or indoctrination, by which I mean teaching dogma whether religious, political, or even advertising. They generally inherit their parents religions and other culture and cling to them for a lifetime, the exceptions being the ones who have access to a liberal education whether formal or through a wise grandparent.
they haven't the courage or wisdom to reject that cultural religious indoctrination as you superior atheists have.
Courage? Wisdom? They just haven't learned how to life outside of religion or without a god belief. As for atheism being superior, I consider it more desirable to be able to live without any of that than the alternative.
It's the atheist that is the modern-day anomaly, turning science into his new 'oracle' of truth. And therefor discarding the old god-deals that so many others still need, want, and employ.
You say that like it's a bad thing. Yes, the critical thinker and empiricist is a modern-day anomaly, a product of the Enlightenment, the others the product of the earlier traditions that preceded the rise of humanism. And this is what allows him to live without the gods others "need, want, and employ."

You seem contemptuous of all of this. Your language is tendentious and emotive. But why should you have any emotional response at all about what atheists believe or how they think? Atheism is not for you. I get it. But it seems that you also resent atheists for being atheists, as if their unbelief and reasons for it are a personal offense to you.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There is no rational way from informed atheism to theism.
This is empirical true as I have yet to meet someone who has gone that route and it is logically true as theism is an inherently irrational position.
I believe your statement is irrational.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I believe I don't lie. I can't understand why people think otherwise.

Its just not how atheism works, you may get agnostics, you may get religious folk who are angry with their god belief and fall out with religion and claim to be atheist. But the chance of atheist ignoring their own view and drifting towards a god belief, i simply cannot see it happening
 

PureX

Veteran Member
"There is no rational way from informed atheism to theism."
"This is empirical true as I have yet to meet someone who has gone that route and it is logically true as theism is an inherently irrational position."


1. It is not possible for any human being to determine the nature or existence of the phenomenon or entity commonly referred to as "God".

2. Therefor, an "informed" individual has several choices logically available to them in regards to the God-concept:
a.) to hope that a God of their preferred definition and effect exists,​
b.) to presume that no gods exist or that whatever gods may exist do not matter as they have no recognizable or appreciable effect, or​
c.) to remain undetermined.​

3. It would be logical to try living according to each of these choices, for a time, to see what benefits or difficulties result from each, and then choose one's position based on the value added to one's life experience, if any.

And there you have it. A perfectly logical and reasonable thought process that could lead one from "informed" atheism to "informed" theism.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Agreed, but also, the notion that the motivated (zealous) reader of scripture has extra insight into the meanings of those words is a falsehood. The skeptic need never defer to the self-proclaimed expertise of the believer when their opinions differ. Good examples include the interpretation of biblical myths and the fulfillment of prophecy. We each decide for ourselves what to make of all of that.

Agreed. A fair assessment. Who is the zealous reader?

The one who is reducing detail, ignoring plot points or is simply ignorant of the words on the page is creating their own mythology. When they deny those details and plot points even though they are repeatedly exposed to them, they have become zealous for their own manufactured mythology.

This person ^^ is the zealous reader.

Zealotry is not limited to the typical religious adherents. No one is immune. The skeptic who is not skeptical of themself is also a zealot. Perhaps the worst kind of zealot because they think they're a skeptic, they think they're immune, and nothing will convince them otherwise. They're actually not a skeptic at all, they abandoned that and traded it for a delusion of self inerrancy.

I see no reason to exclude people like this from the category of "religious thinkers" even though the skeptic may be insulted by this.

The truth hurts.

Thank you for pointing this out. If you respond, I probably won't be replying until after the holiday.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist



I think people generally have the capacity to change their faith even when they grew up differently. Much like Christians that became atheists or visa-versa.
I can definitely attest to that.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
that what one gets as a religious belief tends to stick no matter where one lives - unless one is not educated into any particular one and perhaps given a choice - and which isn't the norm.
In the vast majority of cases, yes. In my case, no. Does that make me an oddball?

On 2nd thought, I didn't ask that question. :glomp2:
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
In the vast majority of cases, yes. In my case, no. Does that make me an oddball?

On 2nd thought, I didn't ask that question. :glomp2:
Same here, and I believe those of us who actually decide for ourselves are the odd ones out - at the moment. :eek:
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't have to assume anything and I certainly don't have to defend the fact that I don't share in your beliefs, it's just a given, and it's odd that you take offense to that.
It's odd to those who don't have those kinds of emotional responses to being disagreed with. I'm with you there. This is among the chief asymmetries in these discussions, the other being largely intellectual. One group is evidence-based in its thinking and the other values faith, and the former group is generally pretty dispassionate in its argumentation, which it frames as debate or dialectic, a process it esteems, whereas the other is defensive and quick to anger. Another is that theists tend to discuss atheists more than atheism, whereas atheists tend to be more interested in theism than theists, that is, one is more idea-oriented and the other more people-directed. Another is the theist's tendency to borrow from the critical thinker's toolbox and argue that he employ's reason and evidence, whereas the critical thinker doesn't pretend to use faith.
I don't imagine what theism is, theists are burdened with that dilemma, I am free of that. I don't share in your beliefs because I don't know and don't care what they are, there is nothing to make up. You have an axe to grind, that's what religion causes by the sounds of your posts, that too is not my problem, I am free of religion.
Yes, that describes this personality I'm delineating. That kind of theist doesn't like you. He doesn't approve of you. He understands you in terms of moral deficiency and deliberate blindness. For many, atheists are malicious and mean-spirited. They're only on these threads to do what demons do - to pee on the theist's corn flakes. Why do we even come here, they ask, implying that they can see no other motive for these discussions.
In my semi-humble opinion, I distinguish between "atheism" and "agnosticism" this way:
atheism = believe there are no gods.
agnosticism = no belief one way or the other.
OK, but that doesn't work for me or most atheists, who call themselves agnostic atheists, atheist being defined as lacking a god belief. If you ask me if I believe in a god or gods, my answer is no. If that isn't an atheist in some nomenclature, then I can't use it. The distinction between those unbelievers with no god belief who go further than somebody like me and add that there are no gods - also an unfalsifiable, faith-based claim - isn't a relevant criterion for calling one an atheist and the other not an atheist. They're both atheists to me, one with an extra belief.
I do not believe that atheism is a rejection of God. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God.
Agreed. Few theists seem to understand that. For many, there is a constant tendency to transform that into a positive claim that gods don't exist.
I believe that God exists in in objective reality since God does not exist only in our minds. Objective refers to a reality that is outside of your mind, and subjective refers to the inner reality of your mind.
Gods don't exist in minds. Ideas of gods do. The question is whether gods exist outside of minds. If so, then what is in our minds represents something outside of our minds, and if not, is a product of imagination.
Atheism could be a path to discovery of God if atheists did not reject what God offers as evidence of His existence.
Nothing offered as evidence of a god supports the belief in a supernatural agent. Reality and nature are the same thing. If a creator god exists and is causally connected to our world such that it can impact it and our experience of it, it is another part of nature and it is detectable. Until we detect a god or a finding best understood as indicating the need for a god to account for it, then the god concept has no value in explaining or predicting anything.

Or perhaps you disagree and think that I would be rewarded by starting to see what you call evidence for a god as that myself. Do you? You seem to think that the transformation you describe to 'finding God' is always a good and desirable thing, always makes a life better somehow. Do you think that? If so, what do you think it could do for a person presently comfortable without god beliefs or religion?
I do not believe that atheists are doomed to hell for not following the Bible. I do not believe that hell is a literal place of fire and torment. I believe hell is a metaphor for the suffering and despair that we create for ourselves and others, and I also believe it is distance from God; not physical distance but distance in our heart.
You're one step closer to atheism than the typical evangelical Christian.

"To the philosophy of atheism belongs the credit of robbing death of its horror and its terror. It brought about the abolition of Hell." - Joseph Lewis

We see the Abrahamic religions evolving under the influence of humanist thought. They've begun to accept science, academia, democracy and the immorality of slavery and homophobia, and many no longer see atheistic humanists as devils, and most no longer agree with biblical scripture that they should be despised and shunned if not persecuted.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not all atheists at all. It's only the ones who come to online venues for the purpose of arguing with religious people.
The atheists you don't approve of are the ones who will disagree with you in writing. If they just would keep their opinions to themselves, you wouldn't resent them, right?
These are generally ex-christians who think they know the OT better than the religious adherents who study it.
Most atheists don't care what the Tanakh says. This ex-Christian doesn't, although I had read and studied both testaments for years as a believer. The contention arises when the believer assumes that his belief gives him authority in discussions about scripture, an assumption I reject. His extra knowledge of details is irrelevant to me.
Who is the zealous reader?
The motivated reader is the faith-based thinker. He has decided a priori that the scriptures are truth and inform him of an actual tri-omni god, and so that's how he reads the words.
Constant scrutiny? What are you even talking about? By whom? where? when? examples? anything? This seems like a bit of a grandiose delusion / demonization of the opposition to me.
Interesting choice of words - demonization of the opposition. Theists invented demons and demonization, and they have demonized atheists:

"From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." Atheists Are America’s Most Distrusted Minority, Says Study

The delusion is yours. Atheists have long been in theists' crosshairs, or have you forgotten? Once, they were killed by theists. By the time I was born, the persecution was nonviolent - atheists were considered morally unfit for a variety of activities - can't teach, can't coach, can't adopt, not fit to take an oath as a juror or expert witness, etc.. And I have been subjected to atheophobic bigotry in my life and on these threads - this one in fact, although it wasn't directed at me individually.
Like the claim that people commit moral crimes because their religions tell them to? At least I was able to explain why that's logically a false claim.
Do you think you did that? American Christians in large numbers voted for a monster to be president so that he would help them recriminalize abortion and make pregnant women incubators for the state based on ancient superstitions that they are happy to impose on unbelievers. That rises to the level of gross immorality for me. That's what Weinberg eant by, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

I would go further. It takes faith, and not necessarily in just religion. This is how Trump got his insurrectionists mobilized - faith in his election hoax indoctrination. Faith is why people come on the Internet telling others to avoid vaccines and to take bleach and dewormer of you get a virus. These are all moral crimes facilitated by faith.
What is needed and expected is open-mindedness toward the opposing position.
These were your words: "You are effectively in a "kangaroo court" where the atheist has already condemned you before the "trial" even starts, and then assigns themselves the right to define all the terms, the authority to set all the rules, and ultimately the position of deciding the outcome. All before you say a single word."
Nothing about mythical literature is falsifiable or verifiable because it isn't real.
They're stories intended for childlike minds, which defines their original intended audiences - people lacking critical thinking skills who didn't even know where the rain came from, illiterate people transmitting an oral mythology until it was eventually written down, which was taught as historical fact the challenging of which would be considered heresy or blasphemy until science demonstrated that the myths were incorrect and increasingly, people were forced to agree that they never actually happened.

Today, people claim that the stories were never actually taught as historical fact, but that's revisionism and hindsight bias: "Hindsight bias, also known as the knew-it-all-along phenomenon is the common tendency for people to perceive past events as having been more predictable than they were." No, most didn't know these stories weren't considered historical events until empiricism revealed that, and many still understnad them that way.
People speak the language they've been given. And they don't understand people that speak a different language because they don't speak it. This causes "discord". So what's your solution?
I can give you the biblical solution. It must be the work of an angry god. Why else would there be so many languages given that we are ruled by a tri-omni god? It obviously created a hardship for man, so it must have been a just punishment for an act of rebellion and defiance. The solution is to stop sinning and be more obedient to a book god before he smites us again as he did in the garden and with the flood. It's a lesson man never seems to learn - bad things happen because of freethinking.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
OK, but that doesn't work for me or most atheists, who call themselves agnostic atheists, atheist being defined as lacking a god belief. If you ask me if I believe in a god or gods, my answer is no. If that isn't an atheist in some nomenclature, then I can't use it. The distinction between those unbelievers with no god belief who go further than somebody like me and add that there are no gods - also an unfalsifiable, faith-based claim - isn't a relevant criterion for calling one an atheist and the other not an atheist. They're both atheists to me, one with an extra belief.
Yes, there can be some variation on labels, but I still prefer to separate them as there's a significant difference between atheist [no deity] and agnostic [uncertain]. Thus, I use it more for clarification's sake.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If being dark-skinned was a cause of criminal behavior all dark-skinned people would be criminally inclined. But they aren't. So skin color has nothing to do with criminality. Except in the minds of racist bigots.

If being a Christian, or being a Muslim, or being religious was a cause of violent, oppressive, or criminal behavior toward others then all Christians, Muslims, and other religious folk would be inclined toward violent, oppressive, criminal behavior toward others. But they aren't. So being religious has nothing to do with violence, oppression, or other kinds of criminality. Except in the minds of religious bigots.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Gods don't exist in minds. Ideas of gods do. The question is whether gods exist outside of minds. If so, then what is in our minds represents something outside of our minds, and if not, is a product of imagination.
I fully agree. The question is whether God exists outside of our minds.
Nothing offered as evidence of a god supports the belief in a supernatural agent. Reality and nature are the same thing. If a creator god exists and is causally connected to our world such that it can impact it and our experience of it, it is another part of nature and it is detectable.
There is no reason to think that nature is all there is to reality (that they are the same thing).

Reality:
  • the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
  • the state or quality of having existence or substance.
reality means - Google Search

Even if a creator God exists and is causally connected to our world such that it can impact it and our experience of it, that does not mean that God is 'part of nature' and God would be detectable. I do not believe that God is part of nature, I believe that God exists somewhere in the spiritual world, which is outside of the natural world. Where and how God exists is a complete unknown.
Until we detect a god or a finding best understood as indicating the need for a god to account for it, then the god concept has no value in explaining or predicting anything.
I don't need to be able to detect God in order to believe that God exists. I have other evidence, and you already know what that is.
I believe there is a need for God since God rules and maintains all of existence and God sends Messengers. I see no reason to have any other expectations of God. I believe that God hears my prayers and I can hope He helps me but I don't expect that.
Or perhaps you disagree and think that I would be rewarded by starting to see what you call evidence for a god as that myself. Do you? You seem to think that the transformation you describe to 'finding God' is always a good and desirable thing, always makes a life better somehow. Do you think that? If so, what do you think it could do for a person presently comfortable without god beliefs or religion?
Those are good questions.

No, I do not think that you would be rewarded by starting to see what I call evidence for God as evidence for God. The reason I say that is because you either see it as evidence or you do not. If you don't then you would have to change your whole way of thinking in order to see it differently, and I don't think that would be possible unless you were open to seeing the evidence differently.

Yes I think that believing in God is a good thing because I believe that God exists. I say that with caveats, since I don't believe that having false beliefs about God is good. However, it might be better to have some false beliefs about God than to reject God altogether.

I do not look at life the way you do. I do not seek comfort, I seek truth. Even if belief in God made my life less comfortable I would still rather believe in God than not, since I believe that 'God exists' is the truth. I believe that not knowing the truth can have serious repercussions, and even if it does not affect our life in this world, it will affect our life in the next world.

If this life was all there was I can see why someone would seek comfort and happiness from what this world has to offer, but I don't believe that is the case, so it makes no sense for me to seek comfort and happiness from the things of this world has to offer. That does not mean I reject everything this world has to offer, only that I do not put a lot of value on worldly pleasures. For example, I am here posting to you, and I do not consider that a worldly pleasure. For me it is a spiritual pastime as well as an intellectual one.
You're one step closer to atheism than the typical evangelical Christian.
Well, in one sense I believe that is true, since I do not always consider myself very close to God in my heart, even though I believe in Him.

If hell is distance from God that is a cause for concern. However, I am not as concerned as I used to be because I do not interpret that Baha'i teaching literally. I also believe that God knows how I feel and why I feel that way and forgives me, since God is the Ever-Forgiving. Even if I never succeeded, God knows I have tried to love him and how much time I have spent doing so!
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no reason to think that nature is all there is to reality (that they are the same thing).
I disagree. We have no evidence that there is more than nature, and that is reason enough to live life as if that were how it is. What is true is that there is no reason to believe that there is more than nature. It's also a vague idea - the supernatural. What is it that is claimed to exist and if it exists, whatever the answer, why call it anything other than another aspect of nature?
Even if a creator God exists and is causally connected to our world such that it can impact it and our experience of it, that does not mean that God is 'part of nature' and God would be detectable.
I say that's exactly what it means. That describes the sun. It is causally connected to life on earth via the heat and warmth it provides and the gravity that holds us in orbit around it. Those are causes and effects, they are detectable, and we would have any reason to say that they aren't natural or part of nature.

If a god exists somewhere out there and it is still causally connected to earth such that it can affect human life, then it is also detectable through those effects, and we would have no reason to say that it isn't an aspect of nature.

The deist god, by contrast, has left the building. It is causally disconnected from nature, which is understood to run automatically and without intelligent supervision.
I don't need to be able to detect God in order to believe that God exists.
I do. It pretty much defines the empiricist epistemology.
I have other evidence, and you already know what that is.
I presume that you mean the life and writings of the messenger. I disagree that either support a god belief, but let's stipulate to that - that the words of Baha'u'llah could not have been written by a human being or even channeled to him by advanced extraterrestrials, but suggest something more than that. Even then, that is evidence of something real known by its impact on human life and demonstrates a god that is causally connected to our reality and thus a part of it.

As man keeps learning that reality is more vast than he could originally have suspected, new realms have opened up to us with new behaviors and phenomena, as with other galaxies with their supermassive black holes that trap light with their gravity. We didn't call this outside nature. We expanded our scale and qualities for nature. These were understood to be previously unseen aspects of nature, not something outside of or greater than nature.

And if we find a god out there somewhere, it will be added to the inventory of thing that nature contains, all causally connected to one another in space and time and affecting one another. That's what causally connected means, and it means that whatever is causally connected to any part of reality is another part of it making it both natural and detectable.
No, I do not think that you would be rewarded by starting to see what I call evidence for God as evidence for God. The reason I say that is because you either see it as evidence or you do not.
So then you agree that my life would not be improved by my discovering the god you believe exists but I don't? Others recommend I search for this god, but I can't see why I should even if it exists, and your answer suggests that my view is appropriate.

Are you familiar with the term apatheism? "Apatheism is the attitude of apathy toward the existence or non-existence of God(s). It is more of an attitude rather than a belief, claim, or belief system."
Yes I think that believing in God is a good thing because I believe that God exists. I say that with caveats, since I don't believe that having false beliefs about God is good. However, it might be better to have some false beliefs about God than to reject God altogether.
Why? You just finished writing that I would not be rewarded by finding God, now you say that belief is a good thing even if the beliefs aren't correct.
I do not look at life the way you do. I do not seek comfort, I seek truth.
I seek truth for the purpose of attaining happiness. A truth that cannot positively impact life knowing it has no value. Incidentally, "comfort" (happiness) to me is a living a relatively stress- and regret-free life in a beautiful, peaceful place with love, leisure, relatively good health, and satisfying things to do. Isn't that the vision of paradise most or all of humanity seeks, some in an imagined afterlife if they haven't found it on earth? Knowledge (truth) is that set of ideas that facilitate creating and maintaining such a life.

And doesn't that describe you as well? Aren't you trying to arrange your life so that it is maximally satisfying, however you understand that? Aren't you also trying to optimize love, beauty, and purpose in your life while minimizing annoyances and assorted unpleasant feelings and experiences? In my estimation, that's where knowledge (truth, or correct ideas) has value, and nowhere else.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I fully agree. The question is whether God exists outside of our minds.
Indeed it is. Intersting, though, how seldom that question is ever actually asked around here. Or the immediate follow-up question; "How could we know?" Two questions that circumvent the whole quagmire of 'belief' and get right to the heart of the matter.
 

McBell

Unbound
Indeed it is. Intersting, though, how seldom that question is ever actually asked around here. Or the immediate follow-up question; "How could we know?" Two questions that circumvent the whole quagmire of 'belief' and get right to the heart of the matter.
And both lead right back to "belief".
and round and round they go.....
 
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