That was very considerate of you to apologize in advance for your unfounded and presumptuous belief.Sorry, but I don't believe you were ever a Christian.
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The "Paul" that anti-Christians invented
- Thread starter Eli G
- Start date
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
And judgment. Let's not forget personal judgment.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
You asked and I answered.
And I do. We all do. It's God's gift, this free-will I cherish.
I read Paul's epistles and find quite a lot of useful perspectives, so he is a part of my religious study as are many, many others. I'm not sure who or what you mean by "as the Jew said in that book. . ."
I only accuse Paul of being a human that tried too hard. Yep, I've been known to do that, so .........I think it is you who are doing what you accuse Paul of.
If you don't want to hear someone's view on a topic, why do you open a post to begin with? I don't think anyone responding to your thread is trying to move anything in you.
Take note -- you're continuing with the questioning.
Never accused him of being FALSE anything.
Being an average 1st century man of Jewish faith caught up in changing times, who made the decision to change sides in the social wars between Roman authority and the members of the growing faith known as the Way.
I have. The nature of the man shown in 1 Corinthians 9, and Acts 26, IMO, is not one I would chose to accept at face value, 1st century or 21st century.
I am better than no one. I am different from everyone. And I don't and never have "hated" Paul. These are your words, and your conclusions, so you need to look to yourself for clarity.
When I read his words with open mind and no expectation beyond understanding of the content, and context, of his works.
No, I'm not gay. And you?
I was wondering if much of the hatred to Paul from pseudo-Paul propagators has to do with him explicitly saying that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. It seems to be a reason to hate someone ... if that person does not approve of their personal practices and style of life.
PS: No one can perform the miracles that Paul did by the power of the holy spirit and in the name of Jesus, and not have the approval of God.
PS: No one can perform the miracles that Paul did by the power of the holy spirit and in the name of Jesus, and not have the approval of God.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Where, in what book, chapter, verse, did Paul say this, and by what authority did he claim, please?
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
So enlighten me. Share the location of that statement, please.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Ahhhh, you made it up.I don't have time for you, sorry.
Have a good one.
The closest that comes to being true is Romans 1:18-28. However there are other sins besides dishonorable passions grouped together in these passages, AND there is currently doubt that Paul was the author of Romans anyway.
You see, there is another theory about Saul of Tarsus that you may not be aware of. I read about it quite a long time ago and didn't dwell on the rational possibility long enough to note the sourceS given, for it makes no difference to me one way or another. Not my business.
However, since you introduced this particular POI to the debate, I choose to counter your dismissive with the theory that Paul gave the instruction of celibacy to his churches largely because he struggled in his own life. You see, it has theorized that Paul and Timothy were lovers. OOOOHH
Anti-Christians and atheists are not aware of what the holy spirit accomplishes within the true Christian community. They cannot understand the achievements of Christians who are truly anointed with that powerful force that comes from heaven and only occupies those designated by God to truly bear His name and defend the truth.
That is the powerful force that acted in the Christian community of the first century, because those communities in general were subject to the direction of a Body of anointed ones in Jerusalem and other missionaries who were responsible for controlling the expansion and incorruption of the truth.
Anti-Christians and others also do not recognize the existence of the Devil as an iniquitous spiritual force that is continually opposing the expansion of truth for the salvation of people. By not recognizing this evil influence in the world, they cannot understand why true Christians need to be united to the trunk of the tree that is nourished by true sap, through the holy spirit of God.
No person separated from that trunk can discover the truth by himself, because the forces of darkness that exist in the world are much more powerful than any person or group that does not have the protection and true guidance of God, which is accompanied by his holy spirit acting and directing the true people who are in his hands. That is why God looks for honest people and draws them to the light, so that they do not search blindly. He can see people's hearts, their deepest intentions and motivations.
That is why critics of the Bible who analyze it separately from the life of the writings will never be able to understand the truth behind those Scriptures.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you. 18 I will not leave you bereaved. I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
That is the powerful force that acted in the Christian community of the first century, because those communities in general were subject to the direction of a Body of anointed ones in Jerusalem and other missionaries who were responsible for controlling the expansion and incorruption of the truth.
Anti-Christians and others also do not recognize the existence of the Devil as an iniquitous spiritual force that is continually opposing the expansion of truth for the salvation of people. By not recognizing this evil influence in the world, they cannot understand why true Christians need to be united to the trunk of the tree that is nourished by true sap, through the holy spirit of God.
No person separated from that trunk can discover the truth by himself, because the forces of darkness that exist in the world are much more powerful than any person or group that does not have the protection and true guidance of God, which is accompanied by his holy spirit acting and directing the true people who are in his hands. That is why God looks for honest people and draws them to the light, so that they do not search blindly. He can see people's hearts, their deepest intentions and motivations.
That is why critics of the Bible who analyze it separately from the life of the writings will never be able to understand the truth behind those Scriptures.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you. 18 I will not leave you bereaved. I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
Ajax
Active Member
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Like when he defamed Moses?
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13
Though there are many different stories about Paul (Saul-Saulus) it is my understanding that he worked for the Roman occupiers and with his help Jesus was captured.
He later felt guilty about his part in JCs execution and converted to Christianity.
It may seem strange, but the truth is that some anti-Christians have invented a character called "Paul" to replace the real Paul we learn about in the Scriptures.
That pseudo-Paul, they say, is an enemy of Jesus Christ who invented a new religion different that the one Jesus and his apostles taught, and they say that this "Paul" dedicated himself to gaining followers of his own.
In this topic we are going to review with you the things that the Bible says about the true Paul, the servant of Jesus Christ, who worked so much for the kingdom of Christ and because of which he suffered so much.
Stay close, because those who are dedicated topseudo-Paul's propagandaare not going to stay calm when they begin to realize that someone deceived them... or perhaps they already knew it?
Yes, it'd be difficult for anyone to prove that Jesus had a different theology than Paul since each book of the gospels was influenced by Pauline theology. There being no original manuscript from Jesus from which to compare any differences.
So that is what we are left with. A religion which is centered around the NT which wouldn't exist in its current state without the influence of Paul.
Whatever difference/distance between Paul and Jesus can only come from the imagination.
Paul was chosen by Jesus for the entire role he played in the development of the Christian faith for good reasons: he was the perfect instrument to perform the role he performed: for his zeal and passion to dedicate himself to God, for his high biblical education, for his willingness to be humble despite the role he was choose to perform...
Paul was chosen.
Acts 9:10 There was a disciple named Ananias in Damascus, and the Lord said to him in a vision: “Ananias!”
He said: “Here I am, Lord.”
11 The Lord said to him: “Get up, go to the street called Straight, and look for a man named Saul, from Tarsus, at the house of Judas. For look! he is praying, 12 and in a vision he has seen a man named An·a·niʹas come in and lay his hands on him so that he may recover sight.”
13 But Ananias answered: “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, about all the harm he did to your holy ones in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to arrest all those calling on your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him: “Go! because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16 For I will show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”
17 So Ananias went and entered the house, and he laid his hands on him and said: “Saul, brother, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road along which you were coming, has sent me so that you may recover sight and be filled with holy spirit.”
18 And immediately, what looked like scales fell from his eyes, and he recovered his sight. He then got up and was baptized, 19 and he ate some food and gained strength.
For this reason, 14 letters written by him have been part of the biblical canon since the 1st century, and have thus reached Christians today so that we can benefit from the result of the good work he did.
Acts 13:2 As they were ministering to [the Lord] and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Set aside for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying, they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
Even the demons knew Paul.
Acts 19:11 And God kept performing extraordinary powerful works through the hands of Paul, 12 so that even cloths and aprons that had touched his body were carried to the sick, and the diseases left them, and the wicked spirits came out. 13 But some of the Jews who traveled around casting out demons also tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had wicked spirits; they would say: “I solemnly charge you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.”
14 Now there were seven sons of a Jewish chief priest named Sceva doing this. 15 But in answer the wicked spirit said to them: “I know Jesus and I am acquainted with Paul; but who are you?” 16 At that the man with the wicked spirit leaped on them, overpowered them one after the other, and prevailed against them, so that they fled naked and wounded out of that house. 17 This became known to all, both the Jews and the Greeks who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus went on being magnified. 18 And many of those who had become believers would come and confess and report their practices openly. 19 Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated their value and found them worth 50,000 pieces of silver. 20 Thus in a mighty way, the word of Jehovah kept growing and prevailing.
Anti-Christians fill their mouths to speak ill of Paul because they do not respect Jesus or the work of the holy spirit.
Paul was chosen.
Acts 9:10 There was a disciple named Ananias in Damascus, and the Lord said to him in a vision: “Ananias!”
He said: “Here I am, Lord.”
11 The Lord said to him: “Get up, go to the street called Straight, and look for a man named Saul, from Tarsus, at the house of Judas. For look! he is praying, 12 and in a vision he has seen a man named An·a·niʹas come in and lay his hands on him so that he may recover sight.”
13 But Ananias answered: “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, about all the harm he did to your holy ones in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to arrest all those calling on your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him: “Go! because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16 For I will show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”
17 So Ananias went and entered the house, and he laid his hands on him and said: “Saul, brother, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road along which you were coming, has sent me so that you may recover sight and be filled with holy spirit.”
18 And immediately, what looked like scales fell from his eyes, and he recovered his sight. He then got up and was baptized, 19 and he ate some food and gained strength.
For this reason, 14 letters written by him have been part of the biblical canon since the 1st century, and have thus reached Christians today so that we can benefit from the result of the good work he did.
Acts 13:2 As they were ministering to [the Lord] and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Set aside for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying, they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
Even the demons knew Paul.
Acts 19:11 And God kept performing extraordinary powerful works through the hands of Paul, 12 so that even cloths and aprons that had touched his body were carried to the sick, and the diseases left them, and the wicked spirits came out. 13 But some of the Jews who traveled around casting out demons also tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had wicked spirits; they would say: “I solemnly charge you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.”
14 Now there were seven sons of a Jewish chief priest named Sceva doing this. 15 But in answer the wicked spirit said to them: “I know Jesus and I am acquainted with Paul; but who are you?” 16 At that the man with the wicked spirit leaped on them, overpowered them one after the other, and prevailed against them, so that they fled naked and wounded out of that house. 17 This became known to all, both the Jews and the Greeks who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus went on being magnified. 18 And many of those who had become believers would come and confess and report their practices openly. 19 Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated their value and found them worth 50,000 pieces of silver. 20 Thus in a mighty way, the word of Jehovah kept growing and prevailing.
Anti-Christians fill their mouths to speak ill of Paul because they do not respect Jesus or the work of the holy spirit.
In your opinion, the dead sea Scrolls differ.
Actually it's based on history
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
That just goes back to to Constantine's Rome via the canon of the Church Fathers. The Clementine Recognitions has another story about Peter's "enemy" who taught against the law of Moses. Paul supported Roman/Edomite rule outright (Romans 13), but the gospel teaching about tribute to Rome was considered independently of tribute to deity.
Elemental: Paul, Peter, John, James, etc were Christians ... no practitioners of Judaism.
Matt. 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech. 16 So they sent their disciples to him, together with party followers of Herod, saying: “Teacher, we know you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and you do not seek anyone’s favor, for you do not look at the outward appearance of people. 17 Tell us, then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites? 19 Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a de·narʹi·us. 20 He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.
Matt. 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech. 16 So they sent their disciples to him, together with party followers of Herod, saying: “Teacher, we know you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and you do not seek anyone’s favor, for you do not look at the outward appearance of people. 17 Tell us, then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites? 19 Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a de·narʹi·us. 20 He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.
Your first sentence is true.Elemental: Paul, Peter, John, James, etc were Christians ... no practitioners of Judaism.
Matt. 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech. 16 So they sent their disciples to him, together with party followers of Herod, saying: “Teacher, we know you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and you do not seek anyone’s favor, for you do not look at the outward appearance of people. 17 Tell us, then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites? 19 Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a de·narʹi·us. 20 He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.
Your quote from Matthew is irrelevant to the thread's topic: "The Paul that anti-Christians invented".