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The Pauline Paradox

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
1 - Needing to make stuff up or claim others did to make sense of what you're saying, isn't logical.

2 - Alright so some of Israel came back, when were they then separated as Zechariah 11 is referring to? When was the whole nation destroyed as the text is also referring to? You're not making a clearer case for anywhere in history, and then claiming it fits better, when there are so many missing criteria in what you're saying, to fulfill what is stated in Zechariah 11.

3 - I posted you the text from Matthew 27:3-10, it clearly states what it is referring to; it has no reference to Joseph.... It clearly specifize it is about Zechariah by the criteria it mentions... Please stop making stuff up to have it fit.

4 - Alright so part of Israel came back, how does that make sense of what is stated in Zechariah 11, that the brotherhood shall be broken between them? How were they all meant to be cut off, if you're claiming it is at the time of Zechariah? When did they eat each others flesh?

Take into account on all the questions in number 4, they can all be shown clearly to fit with what Yeshua stated and what happened historically at the 2nd temple destruction.

5 - I'm sorry, that makes no sense, Zechariah clearly states the two staffs are not the nations, it doesn't state that...The staffs are symbolic of the grace and inheritance of the covenant being nullified, and thus broken.

It isn't tricky for me in the slightest, can systematically show logically why each line of Zechariah 11 fits with Yeshua, without needing to make up anything or having missing criteria....

Sorry yet what you have suggested so far isn't even logical; it has to claim tons of additional factors to make anything fit. :innocent:

Oh! I see! I am using the JPS translation of the Tanach and yours, I am sure is the KJV. That could be a cause for the confusion. However, the bottom line is that you are trying to prove that the prophecy of Zechariah is a reference to Jesus. You see that because of your Christian preconceived notions. I can't see it that way. I think I have the better part because the text is Jewish, the prophet was Jewish and the Scriptures is Jewish. In your case, you have only speculations with the intent to lay your eggs in the nest of another bird. You know, the cuckoo birds, remember? They usually lay their eggs in the nests of other smaller birds with the intent to kidnapping their nests.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
The Pauline Paradox

When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah, whose Tribe the Messiah was supposed to come from. Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36)

Since Jesus is also claimed to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah, because God is not subject to human genealogies.

On the other hand, if Christians decided to grab the chance of at least to make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing to drop the tale of the virgin birth, and to admit that he was indeed Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God; and here the situation would get worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity would collapse.

That's indeed a huge paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends. And for lack of knowledge, People perish. (Hosea 4:6)

Now, if there is anyone out there with enough wisdom to unriddle this paradox, I'll be more than happy to take my hat off to him or her. If not, the Sphynx will keep waiting patiently beside the Egyptian pyramids for the passers-by.

Good luck!

St. Paul created no paradox but rather explained Christ's teachings in more detail. You have just failed to properly understand what Paul wrote.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
If the Tanach were the totality of God's Word it might be possible to equate the two, as John 1:1 indicates: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'
A more direct and obvious answer might have been to quote Psalm 23 'The LORD is my shepherd..'
So, who is the LORD?
The Tanach answers this question. Ezekiel, writing some 400 years after David says, 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd:' (Ezekiel 37:24)
So who is the shepherd? Is it David or is it the LORD?
Ezekiel provides the answer. Ezekiel 34:23: 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.'
Does this mean that the one shepherd must also be the Word of God?

Since Ezekiel is writing hundreds of years after King David he cannot be speaking about the temporal king. He must be talking about the everlasting king, the Messiah. It's interesting that the idea that David might 'return' to complete his mission is also found in Ezekiel's prophecy. David's tomb was in existence at the time of Jesus, as it is now. No one was claiming that David had been raised from the dead. Yet the evidence is that Jesus died and WAS resurrected, and subsequently ascended to heaven.
Acts 1:11; 'Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.'
This David will return!

To deny an individual Messiah is wrong. For there to be a people of God, a true body of Christ, there must first be an individual Messiah. The people are only one people because the Holy Spirit (the spirit of God in Christ) binds them together as one.

The opposite is rather true that, to claim an individual Messiah, one is totally wrong. Why? Because the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Now, if you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
St. Paul created no paradox but rather explained Christ's teachings in more detail. You have just failed to properly understand what Paul wrote.

Really! Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law down to the letter and to teach us to do the same until heaven and earth passed away. (Mat. 5:17-19) What did Paul do to teach Jesus' teaching in more detail? He said that Jesus was the end of the Law. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) Is that what you mean by details? I see rather as Paul contradicting Jesus as if he did not know what he was talking about.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
Really! Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law down to the letter and to teach us to do the same until heaven and earth passed away. (Mat. 5:17-19) What did Paul do to teach Jesus' teaching in more detail? He said that Jesus was the end of the Law. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) Is that what you mean by details? I see rather as Paul contradicting Jesus as if he did not know what he was talking about.

Hmm... Why did St. Augustus and all of the great teachers of the Church not feel as you do? Could it be that you are wrong and they are right? Yes, I think you are wrong. The Church has not been decieved but rather you have.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The issue of Jesus, Paul, and the Law is fairly complex, as it appears that they both took the more liberal Pharisee approach on the Law in that it's all about love (of God and one's fellow man) and justice (fairness).
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Oh! I see! I am using the JPS translation of the Tanach and yours, I am sure is the KJV. That could be a cause for the confusion.
Quite open to using the Hebrew words, and use Esword Bible software, so can check the meaning of words....

The confusion is denial of context on the Jewish side of things.
However, the bottom line is that you are trying to prove that the prophecy of Zechariah is a reference to Jesus. You see that because of your Christian preconceived notions.
I'm not a Christian, just study theology.... and based on what is within the text, and what i know of Jewish history, the clearest fulfillment of Zechariah 11 is what happened with Yeshua....

Could then go even further, showing how Zechariah 11 fits with Isaiah 53, etc....Purely based on the specifications within the Tanakh.
I think I have the better part because the text is Jewish, the prophet was Jewish and the Scriptures is Jewish. In your case, you have only speculations
Wow, that is all very condescending.... Actually whereas i go on what a text specifize, you seem to just be making up what you want, and saying, 'see how I'm Jewish that must make it right.' :rolleyes:

It is a good job i don't use the same method of debate, and say I'm the Messiah, and therefore my opinion is always correct.... I don't, I'm quite open to listening to what you believe, and am willing to question any angle. :innocent:
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The opposite is rather true that, to claim an individual Messiah, one is totally wrong. Why? Because the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Now, if you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.

What you fail to see is that Israel refers to Jesus Christ as both the head (as Messiah) and the body. That's why scripture says that Israel will be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation.(Isaiah 45:17)

Let's look a bit more carefully at the idea of an individual and everlasting Messiah. I'll apply the thinking to Jesus, since I believe him to be that Messiah.
Jesus was conceived miraculously within a woman, and was born after a standard gestation period. This is well documented in the gospels of Matthew and Luke. The baby that was born was a human baby, untainted by the iniquity of a human father. He grew up under the law of Moses (Galatians 4:4) and at the age of about thirty was baptised in the River Jordan by John. Pleased with the righteous life that he had led (Mark1:11), the Father in heaven sent down the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit descended upon him like a dove, and the fulness of the Godhead dwelt within him (Colossians 2:9). He was tempted but never sinned (Hebrews 4:15), to the end that the Son was able to say, 'I and my father are one' (John 10:20).

During a ministry in which he taught and acted with the authority of his father, Jesus understood that he had also been sent to die (John 12:24-27: see also John 11:50). God does not die, but the flesh does.

Yet, as the sign of Jonah proves, death was not the end. God raised Jesus from the dead (body, soul and Spirit as one), and after forty days in evidence on the earth, his new and incorruptible body ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of his father. From this throne he sends the Holy Spirit to all who repent, believe, and do the will of the Father.

When Jesus Christ returns to bring about the resurrection of the dead, he does so as the Judge of all mankind. Scripture is quite clear in showing that as the risen Lord, Christ Jesus is worthy of worship (Revelation 19:15,16). This is not a Messiah with an end, but a King of Kings who lives eternally.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
What you fail to see is that Israel refers to Jesus Christ as both the head (as Messiah) and the body. That's why scripture says that Israel will be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation.(Isaiah 45:17)

According to whom, the term "Israel" in the Tanach is a reference to Jesus in the NT, to Christian preconceived notions? Sorry, but this works only with Christians. I am Jewish.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Quite open to using the Hebrew words, and use Esword Bible software, so can check the meaning of words....

The confusion is denial of context on the Jewish side of things.

I'm not a Christian, just study theology.... and based on what is within the text, and what i know of Jewish history, the clearest fulfillment of Zechariah 11 is what happened with Yeshua....

Could then go even further, showing how Zechariah 11 fits with Isaiah 53, etc....Purely based on the specifications within the Tanakh.

Wow, that is all very condescending.... Actually whereas i go on what a text specifize, you seem to just be making up what you want, and saying, 'see how I'm Jewish that must make it right.' :rolleyes:

It is a good job i don't use the same method of debate, and say I'm the Messiah, and therefore my opinion is always correct.... I don't, I'm quite open to listening to what you believe, and am willing to question any angle. :innocent:

That's very good to question but you must document what you question to show some evidence of your honest desire to learn. Not to be a Christian as you claim above, you have been shown to be more of a Christian than many others.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Hmm... Why did St. Augustus and all of the great teachers of the Church not feel as you do? Could it be that you are wrong and they are right? Yes, I think you are wrong. The Church has not been decieved but rather you have.

But of course! Did you think I expected you to acknowledge I was right and the Church wrong? That would be too childish.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
According to whom, the term "Israel" in the Tanach is a reference to Jesus in the NT, to Christian preconceived notions? Sorry, but this works only with Christians. I am Jewish.
Yet you say that the Tanach is your shepherd. So why don't you believe the word of your shepherd?
Ezekiel 34:23: 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.'
The very scripture you claim as truth is saying that David (the everlasting individual Messiah) is set up by his Father in heaven to be shepherd over all Israel.
How do you explain this passage?
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
But of course! Did you think I expected you to acknowledge I was right and the Church wrong? That would be too childish.

Hmm... I can believe Paul and the Apostles, the Church, all the great philosophers of the Church or you.

Gee, I think I'm gonna have to go with them, dude. :rolleyes:
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I tried to read through the entire post, but it is seven pages, and I might have missed something, or I might be repeating something. I apologize in advance.

The Pauline Paradox

When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.
Did Paul teach this though? King David was called a son of G-d. Others were referred to as brothers and sister in Christ, and that could imply being son and daughter of G-d. I don't recall Paul ever stating that Jesus was the Son of G-d or that he was the Messiah though. At least not in anyway that would make him different than other sons and daughters of G-d. So I think there is a problem here to begin with.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah, whose Tribe the Messiah was supposed to come from. Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36)
Paul didn't write Luke though, nor does he refer to a virgin birth. For Paul, he outright states that Jesus was a descendant of David. No genealogy is needed for him, and no miraculous birth.

Since Jesus is also claimed to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah, because God is not subject to human genealogies.
That logic doesn't really work. We can ignore the idea that Jesus was G-d, as he never really said that. Later writers may have implied such, but Jesus wouldn't have said such. Even the virgin birth stories, and the like, imply at most that he may be an incarnation of G-d.

Also, who says that G-d couldn't be subject to human genealogies? If G-d in fact became human, and was born of a woman, it would stand that G-d could in fact be subject to human genealogies, in the same way that G-d could be subject to a human birth.

Plus, the Messiah requirements aren't hard and fast. There is a lot of wiggle room.

On the other hand, if Christians decided to grab the chance of at least to make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing to drop the tale of the virgin birth, and to admit that he was indeed Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God; and here the situation would get worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity would collapse.
Not really. You're placing some unneeded stipulations on G-d. We can drop the whole virgin birth story, and be fine theologically. In fact, I reject the virgin birth story as it doesn't pass the historical method. So lets ignore it.

We can look at Jesus being the descendant (biologically) of David (Paul never mentions Joseph, or any father, so we can't assume he was aware of such). Jesus could still be a son of G-d, such as in the adoptive sense, and the Trinity would be fine. Or, we can dismiss the idea of Jesus being the/a son of G-d, and go a different route.

In John, the author speaks of Jesus being the Logos. A great source for information on the Logos goes back to Philo of Alexandria. Basically what we get is a facet of G-d. A facet that was born to human kind. It would be in much the same way that Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu, was born.

So there are ways around it. Even Paul, who seems to be unaware of a virgin birth, uses terminology that refers to the spirit of G-d, when talking about Jesus, or Christ. For Paul, the transformation seems to happen after the crucifixion, after the resurrection.

That's indeed a huge paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends. And for lack of knowledge, People perish. (Hosea 4:6)
No paradox though. There is only a paradox if one convolutes all of the sources, without taking them separately. There is no need for a paradox, especially if one looks at it from a different theological point of view.

Now, if there is anyone out there with enough wisdom to unriddle this paradox, I'll be more than happy to take my hat off to him or her. If not, the Sphynx will keep waiting patiently beside the Egyptian pyramids for the passers-by.

Good luck!
So, to sum up, we can bypass the entire paradox by looking at just what Paul has to say about Jesus. He seems to be completely unaware of a virgin birth, and instead states simply that Jesus was a descendant of David, born of a woman. No miracle there. Paul also doesn't appear to call Jesus the Messiah or Son of G-d, but instead does differentiate between an earthly Jesus, and the transformed Christ. The latter he applies terminology in regards to the Spirit of G-d to Jesus. Which bypasses the idea of being a son of G-d, and allows the whole Trinity idea to stand just fine.

I am going to ask the question again, as it seems no one noticed it.

Did Paul actually preach the virgin birth? Are there any indications in any of his letters that Paul believed that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born?
No. Paul seems completely unaware of the idea. So do Mark and John, as well as most of the early Christian writers. Paul instead, when speaking of the birth of Jesus, states simply that he was born of a woman, a descendant of David. For Paul, it seems like the birth hardly matters at all.

I agree with you that to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, one must make use of faith because, literally, it seems impossible. Besides, we are not sure of any thing about Jesus in the NT because the whole book was not written by Jews
but by Hellenist former disciples of Paul. Jesus, if you check History without Christian preconceived notions, never even dreamed that the NT would ever be written.
Jesus can definitely be the Christian Messiah, as Christians have redefined what the Messiah is for them. He is not the Jewish Messiah (as an interesting note, the idea of the Messiah, within Jewish circles, has also evolved and changed).

As for the writing of the NT. Paul was a Jew. He was a Pharisee who never gave up the faith. Matthew was probably a Jew, or at least influenced by such ideas. Definitely not a follower of Paul though. Luke may have been a disciple of Paul, but was Hellenistic no doubt. As for Mark, we know very little, but not a disciple of Paul, neither was the author of John.

It also has to be remembered that one could be a Hellenistic Jew, so the two don't need to be opposed.

St. Paul created no paradox but rather explained Christ's teachings in more detail. You have just failed to properly understand what Paul wrote.
Paul disagrees with Jesus in cases. So not really explained the teachings of Jesus, but added to, contradicted, changed, or taught his own ideas.

Really! Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law down to the letter and to teach us to do the same until heaven and earth passed away. (Mat. 5:17-19) What did Paul do to teach Jesus' teaching in more detail? He said that Jesus was the end of the Law. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) Is that what you mean by details? I see rather as Paul contradicting Jesus as if he did not know what he was talking about.
Jesus was only talking to Jews. His audience, his message, his background, was all Jewish.

Paul was largely talking to non-Jews, to Gentiles. Not being Jews, they did not have to follow the Law. Not a contradiction, but two different audiences.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Paul never disagrees with Jesus. You are sadly mistaken about that.
Not mistaken at all. Jesus says not to eat meat offered to an idol, Paul says it is okay. Jesus says that the Pharisees were lax about the law, while Paul says they followed it rigorously.

Even the way they taught was different. Jesus taught that the heavenly kingdom was going to be on earth, Paul taught that it was a position within the body of Christ. So there are disagreements.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Not mistaken at all. Jesus says not to eat meat offered to an idol, Paul says it is okay. Jesus says that the Pharisees were lax about the law, while Paul says they followed it rigorously.

Even the way they taught was different. Jesus taught that the heavenly kingdom was going to be on earth, Paul taught that it was a position within the body of Christ. So there are disagreements.

Nice try but nothing of the above is true. Quote to us the references, please!
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Paul never disagrees with Jesus. You are sadly mistaken about that.

Really! Jesus said that the Law was to obeyed as long as heaven and earth passed away. (Mat. 5:17-19) Have they passed away yet? Obviously not! Paul, on the other hand, implied that Jesus was lying or did not know what he was talking about. Hence, he said that Jesus was the end of the Law. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) Do you still hold on your assumption that Paul never disagreed with Jesus?
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Jesus was only talking to Jews. His audience, his message, his background, was all Jewish.

Paul was largely talking to non-Jews, to Gentiles. Not being Jews, they did not have to follow the Law. Not a contradiction, but two different audiences.[/QUOTE]

Where was Paul talking to Gentiles, in the synagogues of the Jews? I don't think synagogues were the right place to look for Gentiles. All his life, Paul never left the Jews in peace. Since his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome, he was always after the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2; and 28:17) Or perhaps looking for Gentiles in the synagogues of the Jews. Do you think this funny or the man was losing it?
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
Really! Jesus said that the Law was to obeyed as long as heaven and earth passed away. (Mat. 5:17-19) Have they passed away yet? Obviously not! Paul, on the other hand, implied that Jesus was lying or did not know what he was talking about. Hence, he said that Jesus was the end of the Law. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) Do you still hold on your assumption that Paul never disagreed with Jesus?

Yes, you fail to understand Paul. Totally. Paul said that our salvation is not dependent on following the law. He did not say that we should not follow the law.

The Apostles in Jerusalem agreed with everything Paul taught. Did you not know this? All of the Apostles agree that the Gentiles did not need to follow all of the laws given to the Jews by Moses. Reread the book of Acts.
 
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