The Perfect Moral Decision

[Super Universe]

So we ricochet through life just trying to do the best we can not really knowing if there is any real purpose to all of this and usually not really caring if there is because we see no benefit to it. Whatever we have it's because we worked hard for it. Right?

But did you create yourself? Did you create the earth? Do you make all the oxygen that you breathe?

The benefit is having a life that you can do anything with. This does not have to be here. You do not have to exist. Do you have any idea how complicated the universe is?

It's so incredibly complex that it's impossible for all of this to be an accident. It's more than that, it's a thousand impossibilities built on top of a thousand impossibilities.

People have such a hard time opening up their minds. They're afraid to. Even with proof all around we still prefer our closed set ways "Yeah, I think there is a God but He does nothing for me".

YOU'RE HERE!

If what you want is to continue bouncing back and forth, taking two steps forward and one step back, then that is your choice.

 

[mr.guy]

It's so incredibly complex that it's impossible for all of this to be an accident.

Complexity is moot.

 

[Super Universe]

Can a butterfly understand a worm?

For the beginning years of my life I needed absolute proof of God's existence. I figured that absolute proof was impossible so I felt that I would always be a scientific athiest.

Then proof came in the simplest way possible. Nothing else would have had more impact, nothing else could have been more concise and to the point. It was perfectly suited for me.

Now when I think back to who I was I wonder "Why didn't I just have faith anyway?" What would the harm have been in that?

The worm does not know it's going to become a butterfly but why not just give it the benefit of the doubt and believe anyway?

 

[mr.guy]

The worm does not know it's going to become a butterfly...

I didn't know worms became butterflies. Guess that's why i'm not a "scientific athiest" either.

...but why not just give it the benefit of the doubt and believe anyway?

I'd love to believe this makes sense...

 

[Super Universe]

Sense?

You need everything to make sense to you. You don't want to have to work for it or look. You shouldn't have to ask or search. You want all the poetry explained to you and the books to all have Cliff Notes.

You not only want all the answers handed to you but they also have to fit your wants and desires, otherwise you shout "No deal God!"

 

[mr.guy]

I suppose i also want to provoke more of your raving...right?

 

[michel]

You're right: 6 of one or a half dozen of the other. The emphasis is a tad different but the message is essentially the same. For me, my philosophy and life boil down to two laws: Love God and Love Everyone else. EVERYTHING emanates from these two principles: even my anger and disgust.

Obviously, I agree with both you and Paul. But I think it is enough to say Love God; everyone else and everything else is part of God (including me); now, if Only I could learn to love me.............

 

[Super Universe]

Obviously, I agree with both you and Paul. But I think it is enough to say Love God; everyone else and everything else is part of God (including me); now, if Only I could learn to love me.............

Start by forgiving yourself. Then go from there.

 

[michel]

Start by forgiving yourself. Then go from there.

Ah, I know what I am supposed to do; the trouble is that I can't stand up to my expectations of me.

 

[Darkdale]

Sense?

You need everything to make sense to you. You don't want to have to work for it or look. You shouldn't have to ask or search. You want all the poetry explained to you and the books to all have Cliff Notes.

You not only want all the answers handed to you but they also have to fit your wants and desires, otherwise you shout "No deal God!"

Have you considered how little God has to offer? Or do you require religion to be spoon-fed to you - all we need is faith God - we need no knowledge God - We don't need proof of God, when proof of everything else is at hand. We derive God from our lack of God. God’s absence is his proof. Science, in its simplicity, records what is, and tries to explain it. The effect of this is progress, because sometimes we actually learn something and gain knowledge. Knowledge is quite powerful - but this is a power your God denies you. Why? To keep you powerless? To keep you faithful? To keep you as a slave maybe?

Maybe not. You don't have to understand the nature of the universe to understand the nature of water, or the workings of biology... and thus life. Reason induces and deduces accordingly. To place more faith in your ideals about what you cannot possibly know or understand, than you do in the profane, mundane, knowable world is... well, somewhat backwards.

 

[Super Universe]

How little God has to offer? The universe is so large, it's beyond imagination. Yet this is not enough for you?

I see God and religion as two totally different things. Sometimes agreeing, sometimes opposing. Humans created religion so we really only have ourselves to blame for it's faults.

All the knowledge of the universe is waiting for you, but you do have to do some work, maybe a lifetime of work.

Did you think Einstein was so smart on his own? You think he had no help whatsoever? God does not deny knowledge but He does not give it out freely just as you would not give a loaded gun to a young child without them earning your trust.

You give too much credit to science. Sure it explains how the universe works, it reveals the laws that God set but science does not create itself.

Darwin did not create natural selection, Newton did not create the law of gravitation, Haley did not create the comet. These things were already there and ever apparent.

We have so many theories but what theory explains the origin of matter? The big bang doesn't tell you what started it all or why we have a conscience?

You complain "We are here to serve God as slaves!"

How can this be when you have complete choice? You can go this way or that. You even have the choice to be angry at God.

 

[Super Universe]

Ah, I know what I am supposed to do; the trouble is that I can't stand up to my expectations of me.

You never will. Just try what I said. Give me the benefit of the doubt.

Get away from all the electrical devices for a while, go alone, out to a garden or walk through a forrest.

Think about who you are and how you got to be that person. You've learned from so many mistakes. As a child you were too reckless. You are glad and lucky to have not caused more harm than you did. You are also sad that you had to learn some lessons the hard way.

Now imagine each one of the people you harmed saying this to you "I forgive you."

Then go back to your life.

 

[Darkdale]

How little God has to offer? The universe is so large, it's beyond imagination. Yet this is not enough for you?

Enough for what? What does the size of the universe have to do with me?

I see God and religion as two totally different things. Sometimes agreeing, sometimes opposing. Humans created religion so we really only have ourselves to blame for it's faults.

Well, not all of our faults. Some of our "faults" are simply the inevitable result of evolution being slower than we'd like. Many of our "faults" aren't really all that bad... they just annoy the high-minded and idealistic.

All the knowledge of the universe is waiting for you, but you do have to do some work, maybe a lifetime of work.

Actually, all the knowledge of the universe is not waiting for me. In fact, the amount of knowledge about the universe that can be possessed by one individual is astonishingly small. Self-Knowledge is a more reasonable pursuit if you ask me. That an the knowledge of some trade. Know yourself and know how to do something - other knowledge is a treat, a gift, a matter of hobby and entertainment.

Did you think Einstein was so smart on his own? You think he had no help whatsoever? God does not deny knowledge but He does not give it out freely just as you would not give a loaded gun to a young child without them earning your trust.

Einstein was smart on his own. Other than is school teachers and the books he read... I think his brain produced what his brain produced. Insulting Einstein and claiming it was all God is silliness.

You give too much credit to science. Sure it explains how the universe works, it reveals the laws that God set but science does not create itself.

Nothing creates itself... even life was created. Whatever it is that exists, from which other things have come into being isn't any "greater" than what has come from it. Of course, maybe I need to know how you measure worth, with regard to the universe and its parts.

Darwin did not create natural selection, Newton did not create the law of gravitation, Haley did not create the comet. These things were already there and ever apparent.

So what? Why do you need to assign some mystical value as creator? Why do you have to pretend, while Darwin and Newton go about the business of understanding?

We have so many theories but what theory explains the origin of matter? The big bang doesn't tell you what started it all or why we have a conscience?

Yes, we don't know why the big bang happened, if it did, and we don't know why the brain forms the way it does, or produces thought the way it does. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean that the it must have come from a god. Haven't we gotten rid of all such superstition? Even pagans and heathens have abandoned that kind of anti-reasoning for more scientific explanations.

You complain "We are here to serve God as slaves!"

How can this be when you have complete choice? You can go this way or that. You even have the choice to be angry at God.

So what? Can't a slave be angry at its master? Can't slave's choose to run away, even though it means his death? Most people seem like slaves of one god or another. It is quite unnecessary if you ask me.

 

[Super Universe]

What does the size of the universe have to do with you? Do you think you are limited by the earth's gravity? If you think that way, then you truly are.

Space is time. SPACE IS TIME???

You think Einstein was a really smart human when he was not really different than the rest of us. He had the perfect assembly of genetics for math along with the insane desire to solve physics problems. But he was not perfect, he was even wrong a few times.

Each of us has some of Einstein's ability within us, maybe not for math but for poetry, painting, teaching, athletics, cooking, design, strategy, leadership, debate...

There really is nothing that humanity cannot know but we have to do the work. We must build a strong foundation shaped like a pyramid just so we can get high enough to ask God.

If you want to know the true nature of gravity then you must build upon humanities great foundation of knowledge, spend years learning and understanding everything there is to know about it and if you are lucky and the foundation takes you to the top then you might be the next Einstein who gets the answer to a great question.

If God told anyone else but Einstein that space and time were equal it would have been a complete waste. He was the first to make it all the way to the top of that pyramid.

Or did you think Einstein did it all by himself? Space is time, hmm...

I'm not insulting Einstein, I'm just telling you how it works. Haven't you ever had an answer just 'pop' into your head? Maybe that's where they got that idea of a light bulb being turned on?

You can be an angry athiest if you wish but get the terminology right, you are His child, not His slave. And yes, you can run if you want, for 70 or so years.

It is your choice.

 

[Darkdale]

lol an angry atheist? Actually I am a happy theist, if you must know; but my belief in gods hasn't devolved into a belief in a single, all-powerful deity. Slaves and Children of God are both dependants, and therefore unappealing to me personality. You can be a slave, or a child as you put it, but it won't do you much good in the actual living of your life. It isn't enough to sit around and wax spiritual and feign universal wisdoms and the like... you actually have to walk out of your door in the morning and do something worth while. I know talking about Truth and waving your finger at the disobedient, at the lost, at the evil… makes people feel better about themselves, makes them feel enlightened, helps them imagine themselves to be important without ever having to do anything valuable… but really, it is a sad, pitiable sort of life if you ask me, and not one to be encouraged.

 

[Super Universe]

The earth is about as independant as it gets. You can build your version of the universe. You can change the rules if you want, abide by some or none at all.

Whether you believe in God or not doesn't have to change your free will. I don't have to do anything. God did not give me free will so I would do anything in particular just as He does not make some good and some bad. We choose that on our own.

You are doing what you can with what you know. God hasn't revealed himself to you so it's not something you can easily believe in. We are supposed to be unsure about God, our connection to Him is purposely concealed to give us greater free will, more independance. You don't have to do a thing but live your life as you wish.

You think I was happy about knowing God exists? At the time it was a complete surprise that contradicted everything I thought. I didn't get all the answers along with it. It took me many years to figure out a small piece of how things are.

But I do feel enlightened, I'm not sure if I pre-ordered it or what exactly caused it but I love having the view of the universe that I now have, one that would not have been possible before.

Sad? Does a bird feel sorry for itself?

 

[Darkdale]

You are doing what you can with what you know. God hasn't revealed himself to you so it's not something you can easily believe in. We are supposed to be unsure about God, our connection to Him is purposely concealed to give us greater free will, more independance.

lol awwww... you are so special aren't you? So wise! :biglaugh:

I'm not going to argue spiritual nonsense with you, but you should realize that to be convincing, you must have something tangible, some substance in your argument. In the end, your beliefs are your own and your superstition is yours as well - but you should realize that a growing number of people are becoming quite disinterested in such...... um... imaginative/creative idealizations of God. Not everyone is going to find spiritual pretentiousness attractive or interesting. So when you try to persuade people to agree with your religious ideals, you should include tangible, substantive tenants. A way of showing how your gnosis can be applied to life… you know, some practical applications of your beliefs. For people who don’t need to make themselves feel wiser or better than other people, you’ll want to offer them a practicable motivation.

 

[Super Universe]

Something tangible?

The Perfect Moral Decision is an orderly set of specific steps in the direction to something tangible. A real awakening suited just for you. It won't be the same as mine, yours won't work for me and mine won't work for you.

My message is not for the haystack, it's for the needle. Nothing I or anyone can say will change the view of some. They have set the guidelines for their life, I cannot change them.

Some prefer the old "Fire and brimstone" sermon. Others flock to the pictures of paradise earth on the cover of a magazine. To each his own.

And I don't need anyone to agree with my religious ideals, if they would just open their minds I would consider it a great achievement.

 

[Darkdale]

And I don't need anyone to agree with my religious ideals, if they would just open their minds I would consider it a great achievement.

I'm curious as to what about your beliefs appear to you to be mind-opening? Some might consider it close-minded. As I see it, you have a universal understanding of moral and spiritual reality. This is normal by modern standards. I don't share that point of view and am often annoyed by it... but that's my burden to bear. But, insofar as you have a universal understanding of moral and spiritual reality, you will be naturally hostile to pluralist understandings of religious realities. Agreement is not possible. It would be pointless for me to ask you to open up your eyes, as we are looking at things quite differently.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Obviously, I agree with both you and Paul. But I think it is enough to say Love God; everyone else and everything else is part of God (including me); now, if Only I could learn to love me.............

The best way to "love" your life is to serve others. Don't be the focus: be the lens.