The period after death

[ellenjanuary]

It's a matter of simultaneity, and as such; cannot be adequately processed with our organic brain. What we think we are, as human, is nearly entirely a construct of tensions between environments. Our bodies that require food and shelter, our nervous systems needing stimulation, our sense of individuality that conversely requires us to belong; and all of it has evolved around the constraint of entropy mandating sequential time.

Don't sweat it, is my advice. The tiniest amount of simultaneity induces insanity. It's best to accept that some questions are not meant to be answered.

 

[no-body]

There is no difference between birth and death; returning to the life energy of the beloved.

I don't think it will even be blackness or white void however as there will no longer be a separate self to experience.

I used to have crippling existential dread of death and obsess about it a lot, now I can handle it a lot better and realize worrying about death is useless and counterproductive.

Why do you suppose that you will have an ego in the next life.
I suspect it is left behind at death.

I think this is all death is death of the ego which is only an illusion anyway.

 

[YmirGF]

I think this is all death is death of the ego which is only an illusion anyway.

What strikes me as being odd is the amount of effort that people put into crafting their ego only to believe that one day that ego will no longer exist. It strikes me as a somewhat counter-productive viewpoint.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm inclined to think that when you die you're just dead.

However, as I've mentioned before, I'd like very much to believe as you do. It seems to me much better than what I've heard from any religion, including my own.

Since I don't actually know for sure, I'd like to think your belief is at least possible.

I am more impressed with what is probable rather than what is possible, as anything, in theory, is possible. How probable a given thing is, is another matter entirely.

As smoke said 'when dead you are dead'. in general thats what I think. in your death you release your body back to nature, and if I may be poetic, to the great cycle of life, in this metaphoric sense you are never lost, from earth and back to the earth.

I recognize this aspect of "returning to the Earth", Dan, but my thinking is based on the premise that our physical bodies are like deep sea diving suits. They are required to manipulate reality in a physical framework, but that they are only the outer veneer of a personality that goes much deeper than is normally appreciated.

According to Jewish belief, up to one year the spirit remains with the body, as it is attached to it. This is why in our tradition one waits a year before laying the headstone, as to not show disrespect.

Thanks, Zardoz. I am curious why people would come to believe that the "spirit" has any lasting attachment to their former physical body.

It would seem to be a peculiarly anthropomorphic concept in that physical beings project their concept of self onto beings that are no longer physically focused, assuming that said beings would harbor similar attitudes. In some terms, it is a somewhat arrogant position, but given that folks don't have any other yardsticks to measure existence by, such attitudes are also quite understandable.

 

[YmirGF]

Unlike Islam and Christianity, the Jewish scriptures and also literautre have little to say about the afterlife. on the other hand like I said above, Judaism is all about this physical reality.

Point taken, Dan.

This subject is the first one I've read in a long time that has had enough power to tempt me to post again....as arrogant as that sounds.

I understand completely, Rhonda. Discussions on RF often add new dimension to the word banal. I, for one, am glad that I managed to peak your interest.

The mystery of what happens after one's death has seductively wound in and out of my thoughts countless times over the last year. I've had numerous conjectured discussions with my husband and friends about what happens after we leave this life. And, even though we can never know the solid answer to the question, it's a completely and utterly fascinating topic nonetheless.

I certainly agree on that note. What I find somewhat surprising is how incredibly unreasonable most of the ideas put forth actually sound, especially when they are given with the utmost sincerity and doubly so if one has a little book clutched in their hot little hands to back up said puerile thinking.

My current opinion on the after life is that, there is one. I'm also inclined to think that the soul or energy or spirit of some people sticks close to their former life - at least for awhile. I've read and listened to far too many first hand accounts of people being visited by previously living humans to discount the idea altogether.

My own experience is that this is normally in the form of dreams and am less inclined to accept "first person" accounts of literal visitations of disembodied "spirits". To date, I have had several wonderful dreams featuring my dad, who croaked ummm... three years ago. The last one was spectacular and was reminiscent of descriptions people often give of being in a tunnel (I was in a long hallway) during a Near-Death-Experience or NDE. The neat thing was that my dad was at the other end of the hallway and congratulating me on something. Behind him was a door that stood ajar, behind which, was a very brilliant light.

The question that nags at me these days is why do some "spirits" stick close to home and some seem to move on and out to the far beyond? Do we make the choice to move to a "higher" place at some point? Do failings from our former life keep us from 'lifting off'?

Based on my current thinking, it is up to the recently deceased individual and to the person here on Earth. I am more inclined to think that the "Earthbound" are largely imagining the experiences due to some lack on their end of the chain and overcompensate for that lack by generating the imagined "contact", rather than bona fide "contact" however.

I'm eager to talk about it all. Thanks, Paul!

You are welcome anytime. My PM and Inbox, are always open for you.
PS: Sorry, but I don't "do" Facebook, so had to decline your offer to join the festivities therein.

 

[Caladan]

I recognize this aspect of "returning to the Earth", Dan, but my thinking is based on the premise that our physical bodies are like deep sea diving suits. They are required to manipulate reality in a physical framework, but that they are only the outer veneer of a personality that goes much deeper than is normally appreciated.

Well I hold that everything we experience is in the flesh and this physical reality. we might have an intellect. but we learn our lessons on our flesh. the hard earned lessons are those of blood, sweat and tears. not of intellectual triumphs. that's my humble opinion.

 

[YmirGF]

I used to think that as well. Given that we are all endowed with exactly the same psychological and biological aptitude, there are only two possible perspectives that accommodate the diversity of human opinion on life after death: 1) They are all correct. 2) They are all incorrect. The popular proposal that one of these beliefs is correct and all others are false is absolutely ludicrous, IMO. A child's fantasy.

I agree. What I envision is an environment so naturally malleable that it literally mirrors the thinking of the believer. In that sense, initially, they will believe that their belief systems were the "correct" ones, all along. Ultimately they will arrive at the realization that no human concepts can prepare them for what comes after this initial stage and the stark realization that all human constructs regarding life after death, are just that, constructs. By saying that I do wish to minimize such constructs because they are very useful because they seem so very real. In that regard, they do leave a lasting impression on the traveler.

I could go either way now but the truth of the matter is I don't know (and neither does anybody else).

There's the rub. If anyone is being especially candid they MUST, by default, admit to this reality. If they don't and are somewhat insistent on their vision of reality, my suggestion is to give them a rather wide berth. Usually such people will manufacture some form of emotional blackmail to get you to believe their delusion.

I've got the dilemma that if I go with 1, the implication is that subjective preconceptions of death determine afterlife experience.

Not necessarily. If all of them are true, it could simply be a fleeting perception of "truth" that is rooted in the larger identity wishing to bolster the psychological outlook of the dearly departed until they are competent to make rational decisions based on what seems to be "new" information (ie. the inherent reality of their larger identity). I suppose I am speculating that a metamorphosis occurs at the culmination of the initial post death experience. In some terms, I see this metamorphosis as being like awakening from the, quite necessary, self-imposed "amnesia" of a given physical existence.

What does that mean for a person who "just doesn't know"? Am I supposed to just pick something arbitrarily? And if I do that, am I not risking a downward spiral into the mentality that my arbitrarily chosen afterlife belief is "true" and all others are "false"?

My own guess is that you would not necessarily get into this tussle between "true" and "false" unless you had a predilection for that sort of thinking. In theory, one could get stuck in a "true/false" dichotomy and remain there for some time. Otoh, one could decide to simply follow a rather distinct "What if" series of events.

It's quite a conundrum. This is what led me to lean toward option 2: all beliefs are incorrect. Trying to work out the details of who goes where in an afterlife that is determined by our subjective preconceptions became too absurd for me to maintain the opinion that what we believe death is has anything at all to do with what death is.

I guess the point is to show the difference between beliefs about reality and reality itself and appreciating that there is a rather significant difference.

In my view, it's like we are a pack of grade seven students speculating about what High School will be like. For each of us the experience, though similar, can be wildly different due to our personalities, aptitude and circumstances. In light of that it would be childish to cling to any preconceptions about grade eight experience, especially while experiencing life in the eighth grade.

 

[YmirGF]

hmm... I'm afraid of death.. I'm afraid to experience death.. really scared me.. especially when I had witnessed a person during the last moment the death comes to him..
I pray..and believe in GOD, to ease the burden of being afraid of death... and this afraid, is not being created by me, but it appears inside me..

Nobody knows the period after death.. but I believe we leave our body when we are dead

I hate to say it, but by my reckoning, you are in for a bit of a roller-coaster ride. I suppose what puzzles me is why the fear? Is this fear useful to you? If you believe that "you" survive the death of the physical body what is it exactly that you are fearful of? Change? Being judged?

 

[Alceste]

I agree. What I envision is an environment so naturally malleable that it literally mirrors the thinking of the believer. In that sense, initially, they will believe that their belief systems were the "correct" ones, all along.

That reminds me of a joke - a non-religious guy dies and wakes up in this waiting room. The receptionist asks what he believed in life and he says "Haven't decided". She takes him down this long hallway with doors on either side and shows him a bunch of options - Valhallah, Nirvana (I know, I know, but it's just a joke OK?), and about a dozen other ones. Passing by a door she doesn't open he asks "What about this one?" She goes "OH! Don't touch that door - that's the Christians, they don't think anyone else is up here."

Ultimately they will arrive at the realization that no human concepts can prepare them for what comes after this initial stage and the stark realization that all human constructs regarding life after death, are just that, constructs. By saying that I do wish to minimize such constructs because they are very useful because they seem so very real. In that regard, they do leave a lasting impression on the traveler.

So, hypothetically speaking, does one who is free from mental constructs about the afterlife skip this initial stage altogether and proceed directly to "what comes after"? Does one who believes he will simply cease to exist actually cease to exist during this initial phase, only to be revived for phase two? (That's quite hard to imagine). What about a nature-worshiper who believes that through the process of death and decay we become part of the living flora and fauna and our sense of personal identity is completely destroyed? (That's the concept I prefer).

Not necessarily. If all of them are true, it could simply be a fleeting perception of "truth" that is rooted in the larger identity wishing to bolster the psychological outlook of the dearly departed until they are competent to make rational decisions based on what seems to be "new" information (ie. the inherent reality of their larger identity). I suppose I am speculating that a metamorphosis occurs at the culmination of the initial post death experience. In some terms, I see this metamorphosis as being like awakening from the, quite necessary, self-imposed "amnesia" of a given physical existence.

That seems pretty plausible to me. If the experience of "the afterlife we expect" is a particularly vivid dream that occurs during our last few moments of brain activity. Still leaves me hanging though, somewhat, since I haven't really got an opinion on the subject. I don't want to spend my last moments of brain activity waffling about what kind of afterlife I should hallucinate I am experiencing.

My own guess is that you would not necessarily get into this tussle between "true" and "false" unless you had a predilection for that sort of thinking. In theory, one could get stuck in a "true/false" dichotomy and remain there for some time. Otoh, one could decide to simply follow a rather distinct "What if" series of events.

I guess the point is to show the difference between beliefs about reality and reality itself and appreciating that there is a rather significant difference.

In my view, it's like we are a pack of grade seven students speculating about what High School will be like. For each of us the experience, though similar, can be wildly different due to our personalities, aptitude and circumstances. In light of that it would be childish to cling to any preconceptions about grade eight experience, especially while experiencing life in the eighth grade.

Heh - I hated school from about grade 3 (boredom and bullying, year after year), but every single year after summer holidays I would expect school to be absolutely great this time. By the time I came to terms with the fact it would never become interesting or fun and stopped going (except for exams and art class) it was pretty much over.

So yeah, reality and expectations. I learned a lot on the subject because of that and other similar experiences. Now I avoid expectations like the plague - when I see an expectation, I kill it. Otherwise it interferes with my engagement with my experiences.

The thing is, since I somewhat idealize "the uncarved block", or "the empty vessel", it is a bit difficult for me to embrace a model of death that puts the proverbial sage (IMO, a person without expectations) at a major disadvantage compared to your average fundamentalist.

I would love to be able to gain such control over my consciousness that I can die painlessly at the time and in the place of my choosing through some kind of meditation, but at this point it's simply a matter of wanting to go out in style, not thinking I have somewhere to go.

 

[Love_The_World_You_Find]

my religion teaches that after you die, your spirit leaves your mortal body and you enter the spirit world where those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel during their earthly life will be given the chance to do so ... then comes the resurrection, (at this time your spirit and body will reunite), judgement and finally one of the three kingdoms of heaven, (which one you go to depends on how you lived your life and whether you choose to accept the gospel in this life or the spirit world )

 

[Twilight Hue]

In my view, one perchance might dream after "death" past the point of no return (no possibility of resuscitation) whereas there is still some oxygen left for some brain function. Once the oxygen depletes however the brain no longer can function anymore and real death occurs and any ongoing dream suddenly ends followed by the body's decay and de-composition over time.

Not quite nihilism though in that I tend to surmise that on a molecular/atomic level however the constructs that had made "my" life possible in the first place are in every way still there and just need to organise in some fashion under the right conditions for another manifestation of some sort to occur as a "me" with no direct association with any past manifestations in a sense of an ego self that can identify with any former ego self.

 

[Zardoz]

...Thanks, Zardoz. I am curious why people would come to believe that the "spirit" has any lasting attachment to their former physical body...

Well, we are rather attached to our physical bodies, are we not? It seems logical that, barring a 'light' or 'spirit guide' or other spiritual sign, the spirit would not have any reason to leave, indeed would not know 'where' to go. What I was taught is that a person remains with the body not just because of attachment to the physical but attachment to one's entire life. Mostly, the bad one has done. There is no forgetfulness, one's entire life is available beginning to end. So, the more one has to regret, the longer it takes. In this way this initial phase is much like 'purgatory'.

For the righteous, this may only take a week. According to tradition, the average person 49 days. The truly wicked will spend the entire year reviewing their mistakes. That's a year solid, no sleep or distraction. So, the less time spent doing this the better, obviously. However, so as to not shame the dead, always the full year is waited before installing the headstone.

 

[jtartar]

I have had a bit of an "aha" moment and am concertizing my ideas about the period following the initial death experience. For those who are not up to speed, it is my contention that, upon physical death, the individual experiences whatever they believe will happen after physical death. This is wide open, in those terms and includes anything and everything people can imagine, including nothingness.

Now this "aha" moment wasn't about that period of the death experience. The "aha" moment was about the period directly following this experience and it is that part that I wanted to get your ideas. In short, what I am envisioning is that the events unfolding after physical death happen in at least three stages.

1. The body croaks and the initial subjective death experience occurs.
2. The intial death experience is past and one gets used to their new surroundings
3. After getting reacquainted with the root assumptions of the current system, the individual is able to get out and explore.


Does you religion or your own personal beliefs include details about the post death experience? Please note: This is a discussion area and therefore peoples comments are not open to debate. There will be no requests for evidence, thank you, very much.

I guess why I am asking is that I perceive a period wherein the individual is getting used to their new environment and is not able to wander too far, lest they disturb the locals, as it were, at least, not at first.

Understand that I am not interested if you agree or disagree. That isn't the point of this discussion. The point of this discussion is to compare ideas of what happens after physical death.


Any thoughts?

YmirGF,
Why in the world would you ask a question that is so important and not want proof??
Would not the one who created us have the answers to all our questions??
Let's see what the Holy Scriptures say about death. A study of Eschatology will have answers. Consider what Ecc 3:18-20 has to say about death. These scriptures tell us that there is one eventuality that happens to both man and beast. We both die and both go to the same place, back to the dust, from where we came. These scriptures tell us that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, we both just die.
Consider what Ecc 9:5,6,10 says about death. These scriptures tells us that there is no thought or feeling, in fact there is no consciousness after death. It is interesting how verse 9:5 is also fortified by what the Greek Scriptures say about death and WAGES. This scripture says there is no more wages, and Rom 6:23, tells us that the wages sin pays is death.
Think deeply about Ps 146:3,4, which says not to put your trust in men who die and at that moment there thoughts cease to exist.
There are several other scriptures that let us know the condition of the dead, Ps 6:4,5, wich tells us that David wanted God to save him from death, because in death there is no mention of God. Surely if a person died and went to heaven as many believe, he would praise God.
Ps 115:17, says that the dead do not praise God. Why?? Because they have no thoughts at all!!
Notice what is recorded at Job 14:21,22. Here we are told that a man who has died does not even know what happens to his sons. So the dead are not looking down on us, so as to affect anything, as Ecc 9:6 clearly tells us.
With so much information about the dead in God's unfailing word, I am surprised at so many not knowing the condition of the dead. As Gen 3:19 clearly says the dead return to the ground from where we all came. Does the dust know anything???

 

[Buttercup]

Based on my current thinking, it is up to the recently deceased individual and to the person here on Earth. I am more inclined to think that the "Earthbound" are largely imagining the experiences due to some lack on their end of the chain and overcompensate for that lack by generating the imagined "contact", rather than bona fide "contact" however.

You don't believe in "ghosts" of former humans I take it? Why has that door been closed for you?

You do think the human spirit or energy lives on, correct? If so, could you give a more detailed summary of where you think this spirit goes after death? I'd like to hear more of your thoughts regarding our spirits and how they "get out and explore".

Cool beans, dude. I for one, love conjecture about this stuff. I'm a sucker for non absolutes.

 

[YmirGF]

YmirGF,
Why in the world would you ask a question that is so important and not want proof??
Would not the one who created us have the answers to all our questions??
Let's see what the Holy Scriptures say about death. A study of Eschatology will have answers. Consider what Ecc 3:18-20 has to say about death. These scriptures tell us that there is one eventuality that happens to both man and beast. We both die and both go to the same place, back to the dust, from where we came. These scriptures tell us that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, we both just die.
Consider what Ecc 9:5,6,10 says about death. These scriptures tells us that there is no thought or feeling, in fact there is no consciousness after death. It is interesting how verse 9:5 is also fortified by what the Greek Scriptures say about death and WAGES. This scripture says there is no more wages, and Rom 6:23, tells us that the wages sin pays is death.
Think deeply about Ps 146:3,4, which says not to put your trust in men who die and at that moment there thoughts cease to exist.
There are several other scriptures that let us know the condition of the dead, Ps 6:4,5, wich tells us that David wanted God to save him from death, because in death there is no mention of God. Surely if a person died and went to heaven as many believe, he would praise God.
Ps 115:17, says that the dead do not praise God. Why?? Because they have no thoughts at all!!
Notice what is recorded at Job 14:21,22. Here we are told that a man who has died does not even know what happens to his sons. So the dead are not looking down on us, so as to affect anything, as Ecc 9:6 clearly tells us.
With so much information about the dead in God's unfailing word, I am surprised at so many not knowing the condition of the dead. As Gen 3:19 clearly says the dead return to the ground from where we all came. Does the dust know anything???

Jtartar. The problem with this, from my point of view, is that the so-called "scriptures" are not worth the paper they are written on, imho, of course. Thanks for stopping by however.

 

[YmirGF]

You don't believe in "ghosts" of former humans I take it? Why has that door been closed for you?

You do think the human spirit or energy lives on, correct? If so, could you give a more detailed summary of where you think this spirit goes after death? I'd like to hear more of your thoughts regarding our spirits and how they "get out and explore".

Cool beans, dude. I for one, love conjecture about this stuff. I'm a sucker for non absolutes.

I can see why some folks would be confused by my opinions on this, Buttercup. Though I believe that the dearly departed may drop in from time to time, it is extremely unlikely that physically based beings would recognize their presence. Our senses are just not that refined. I also believe in the virtually unlimited power of the imagination and give considerable attention to its ability to colour experience. That said, I suppose such interactions are possible, it just that I am saying that such interactions are extremely unlikely.

As to "where a spirit goes" after physical death occurs, that is not quite so easy to explain. In a sense, they are still, right here, but space and time divides us so that the twain rarely meet. To an extent there are bleed-throughs from one reality into another from time to time, but such events are not the stuff of everyday occurrence.

From my perspective, non-physically based lifeforms are more inclined to be trotting about exploring their current reality and less inclined to be peeking in on our reality. In those terms, there is a lot of things to do and experience. In our terms, non-physical reality is considerably larger than physical reality, bearing in mind that we consider physical reality to be physically limitless. To a similar extent, non-physical reality, due to not having three-dimensional constraints has some rather extreme possibilities.

For example, artistic folks like Salvador Dali or Escher would be free to create seemingly real artistic works that one could enter into and observe first hand, unlike how we content ourselves with merely looking at a two-dimensional picture.

At the same time, it is inconceivable to me what folks like Einstein, Newton or da Vinci would be capable of without the confusion of physical reality to distract their thinking etc...

The difference between my outlook and that of most others is that I perceive our interests continue after death. We still have our curiosity and a need to concretize reality. Though there is no need to produce for sustaining ones existence, creative expression occurs endlessly because it is simply a derivative of consciousness. Energy is action and continually seeks to express itself in whatever medium is available. For those expecting to lolly-gag about in hanging gardens, eating grapes... they are the ones in for surprises. The after-death environments are not places of infinite rest and relaxation, but rather areas that are teeming with creativity and the excitement of discovery.

 

[Buttercup]

Very interesting theories, Paul. Does the idea of reincarnation have any validity to you?

 

[YmirGF]

Very interesting theories, Paul. Does the idea of reincarnation have any validity to you?

Yes, reincarnation does have a certain validity for me, however, reincarnation as it is generally touted is a gross distortion of the actuality, so much so, as to make said explanations comical and of little value.

Given that all incarnations are simultaneous, there is very little interaction between the aspects on a conscious level. For example, your 16th century French male aspect is quite unaffected by your egging police cars with Ashley. Likewise, you are quite unaffected by the actions of your 6th century Chinese female incarnation even though she is of questionable moral character. Using the guidelines of "general" reincarnation, those incarnations are over and you are the result of their actions. Suffice to say, that such is not the case, as you are all explorers moving through physical existence as you wish. You all exist, right now, in you own current "now".

But we are getting off track... just a tad...

 

[jaareshiah]

I have had a bit of an "aha" moment and am concertizing my ideas about the period following the initial death experience. For those who are not up to speed, it is my contention that, upon physical death, the individual experiences whatever they believe will happen after physical death. This is wide open, in those terms and includes anything and everything people can imagine, including nothingness.

Now this "aha" moment wasn't about that period of the death experience. The "aha" moment was about the period directly following this experience and it is that part that I wanted to get your ideas. In short, what I am envisioning is that the events unfolding after physical death happen in at least three stages.

1. The body croaks and the initial subjective death experience occurs.
2. The intial death experience is past and one gets used to their new surroundings
3. After getting reacquainted with the root assumptions of the current system, the individual is able to get out and explore.


Does you religion or your own personal beliefs include details about the post death experience? Please note: This is a discussion area and therefore peoples comments are not open to debate. There will be no requests for evidence, thank you, very much.

I guess why I am asking is that I perceive a period wherein the individual is getting used to their new environment and is not able to wander too far, lest they disturb the locals, as it were, at least, not at first.

Understand that I am not interested if you agree or disagree. That isn't the point of this discussion. The point of this discussion is to compare ideas of what happens after physical death.


Any thoughts?

In the Bible, Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, says that "the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe that either we are reborn, on this planet or another, in a process of reincarnation, or that we return to Gaea, and might still yet be reborn. My question is, do we ever come to a point where we cease to be reborn, and do we ever remember our past lives in their entirety?