Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
What about " The law is equal for all" instead?
Works for me! It's why Justice wears a blindfold afterall.
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The Perpetrated Lie of Today's Separation of Church and State
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
Works for me! It's why Justice wears a blindfold afterall.
I remember moving to a new town for a new job. The day I drove in to sign the forms with HR, I saw that the main street had a big "MARCH FOR JESUS" banner over it, and the front page of the newspaper had a big photo of two city councillors saluting as the Christian flag was raised at City Hall.
It certainly made me question whether I had made the right decision to move there and whether I - a non-Christian - would be treated fairly in my new job.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Yeah...that's pretty off-putting. I am very much in favor of keeping religious freedoms a matter of civilian life and removing religious sentiments from governmental institutions. Fly your "Trust in God" on your property but keep it off my money and public office.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
They are abused because they are shunned and vulnerable. Abuse doesn't make one gay.
I agree AND i disagree. Yes, schools need to provide and environment conducive to learning. Yes, it includes a diverse population.
But what in the world do you mean by providing for the social and emotional learning? They are to teach an education not become their parents.
Science looks at all possibilities. How do you know that abuse doesn't cause people to question their identity? There is enough evidence that one should consider that it just might be one of the main causes (but not the only one).
do you have another scientific alternative?
That isn't what the science has said. A young child is vulnerable... but not shunned.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Gay kids are often shunned, even by family. Science does not say that abuse makes you gay. It's been a stable percentage of the population through history. Why does a person's sexual orientation matter to you?
But "gayness" isn't a child's issue at that age.
So what does science say?
What we find, instead, is that memories about the abuse from another male can become eroticized for a man, which then compels him to seek out same-sex encounters or porn
Sexual Disorientation of Male Sexual Abuse Survivors
That article explained the rationale behind why they are there. There are functional, not religious in nature. They could have just installed a mop drain tub in the corner and accomplish the same thing. If those were there, they would function for the students who want to wash their feet.
These are not special "religious" tubs. The article made that perfectly clear. Are you simply choosing to disregard that for some reason? Do you believe the ACLU is pro-Muslim and anti-Christian? I cannot see your reasoning here.
Apples and oranges comparison. Apples to apples would be Christians can't bring their Bibles, and Muslims can't bring their Korans. Apples to apples, Muslims can wear a Burqa as an article of clothing, and Christians can wear crosses around their necks. Both are allowed to do that, as far as I am aware.
If there was an inconsistency here, it would be Muslims can bring Korans and wear Burqas, but Christians can't bring their Bibles or wear crosses around their necks. Now that would be wrong. And I would stand in agreement with you against that, as that would clearly be singling out Christianity for special treatment. But that is not what is happening. Is it?
Again, you are comparing apples to oranges here. The 10 Commandment and the Krishna Mantra are apples to apples comparison. They are both parts of religious traditions. LGBTQ flags are part of current social awareness movements. Like civil rights are.
These are separate and distinct matters, like in the 60's you have Peace signs on lockers in the schools as a protest against the war in Vietnam. LGBTQ is also like that, and so those two would be much more an apples to apples comparison than "Make love, not war," slogans are with the 10 commandments would be. Those are categorically different things. We have to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
Now, as far as keeping social movements and trends out of public schools, that's a whole separate matter in itself, and those are things that local school boards make decisions upon. Those have nothing to do with the Constitution and the wall of religious separation. They don't fall underneath that, like religions and the promotion of religions by the government do. They may eventually become constitutional matters, like social movements to allow Blacks to vote, and women to vote, and gays to marry have been. But they aren't part of the separation of government and religion under the constitution.
Considering how absurd such a thing would be, you should have been able to tell I was speaking in hyperboles to make a point. An hyperbole is "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." They are meant to make a point through exaggeration. But the point itself, is valid, not taking the extreme example literally, of course.
My point was, if we think hanging the 10 Commandments on the wall is okay for Christians to do in a public school, then why not booths for all the religions like you find at the country fair? Each are equally absurd, if you think about it. That was my point.
What?? I think you need to explain this. You think the public school is a place where religions should go into and try to make converts? Or are you simply saying they should allow a diversity of religious belief systems to co-exist peacefully with each other, without competing to make converts in the school? If the latter, I would agree with that. If the former, I would take issue with you on that.
I'm not sure what instance you are referring to, but I can assume there is probably some valid reason for it, just like there is installing safe places for students to wash their feet, without violating the Constitution was. I suspect you are filtering what you are reading in the after school clubs with a particular lens that you see a conspiracy against Christians with, as you are the article about the floor/mop sinks Muslim students can use.
If you provide a reference, perhaps I can help offer a different perspective for you to consider on it? Or if I see injustice in it, I'll let you know that too.
Again, I was using hyperbole to make a point. It's a normal part of our language. I'm not anti-Christian. I am however anti-inscinerity. Christian love first and foremost needs to be respectful of others. The goal is not to make converts at any cost. The goal is to be love in the world. Manipulating political systems for inroads into public schools to make converts, is not Christian love. It's dishonesty and disrespect. It's insincere, or "bad faith". I am anti that.
The instances you are citing, seem to be much more about how you are choosing to interpret them. I'll agree with you, when I can see evidence of double-standards. I will point out error when I see it, no matter who is doing it, whether it's them, or it's you. That's not anti-Christian. It's pro-truth.
I'm sure at some point, I'll use another hyperbole. But maybe you'll recognize it next time.Am I clear now? Or do you have another exaggerated statement?
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And if you believe that, I have the Brooklyn bridge to sell you. After all, how did we ever have 150+ years of schools without the need to wash your feet?
You are right... but if someone wants to bring their Koran or Bible or a Veda book... it shouldn't be infringed.
No, these are not apples and oranges... it isn't awareness (that is obvious in all news media) - it is promotion.
Sorry... mind went faster than the fingers. not "should" but "shouldn't. My apology.
Maybe you were alive back then (don't know your age). EVERY residue of faith was attempted to be eliminated from public schools.
Sounded more like a hyper jump
Just checking your pulse.
I do accept the rational explanation that was given. I am not gullible. If you can show me that the explanation in the article was a lie, and I should distrust it, then present me that evidence. Otherwise, taking what was said as the facts of the matter, it was a rational, reasonable explanation. What basis do you have to think it was a lie?
Have we had a large Muslim population in our public schools in the past? That's one reason for why it may not have come up before. Or, it has come up, but it never got much mention because it wasn't exploited as a political hot button issue back then. Or, things like this were never addressed before, because the culture was dominated by a Christian majority, and minorities were not given the time of day. And in fact, that is most likely the case. Remember the days of segregation?
Today is a different environment socially, where civil rights are a thing. We no longer live in the 1950, or the 1900's, or the 1800's. That in and of itself makes a huge difference in what you are seeing. And none of this equals "anti-Christian", unless you see the loss of Christian domination over minority culture itself as "anti-Christ"? I however, do not. I see that as frankly, just self-pity, not actual persecution. Like the firstborn child no longer getting all the attention it used to have one a new child comes along. "You don't love me anymore, you love my little brother more now!". It seems it's kind of like that.
I don't see a problem with that personally either. If a student wants to bring a meaningful religious book with them to school in their backpack and read it over lunch or on break somewhere, I see nothing wrong with that. Why shouldn't they? Are they being prevented from doing that somewhere?
I clearly showed why they are. You need to show me why they aren't. Plust, it is not promotion at all. How is it promotion? Do you consider a person who tells someone else they are gay, to be promoting gayness, for instance? What do you consider promotion?
Good deal. We agree. Schools should not be a place to promote religions and try to convert people to them. Someone wearing a cross around their neck isn't doing that. Nor is Muslim students wearing a Burqa doing that either. A Christian praying over lunch at school isn't that. A Muslim washing their feet isn't that either.
I'm in my 60s. I disagree that "every residue of faith" was targeted to be eliminated. That would be unconstitutional. Students are allowed to believe whatever they want religiousness. But using the school to promote that religion to others, such as making all the students say prayers, or make them attend church services (something that happened when I was a kid - once a week you had to visit a church as part of the program, which is a real problem if their parents were atheists), is unconstitutional. It is not the place of the school to instill religious faith in students. That is the only thing that was eliminated. And it is right to eliminate that.
What sort of things being eliminated do you feel was unjustifiable? Can you explain?
I'm pro-fairness. I'll call a foul when I see it, no matter who is guilty of it. I don't play favorites.Just checking your pulse.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
People know when they are different, even kids. Kids have crushes too, but it's just not sexual until puberty.
These two are contradictory and proves my point. It is religious in nature.
We agree...
Do they have a Christian flag for the same reason? Or are you particular in which flags are ok.
Another BINGO
It was unconstitutional, but it was a continuing battle to get that back. And, in many cases, still is.
If we are talking just talking about schools:
Teacher to First Grader: You're Not Allowed to Talk About the Bible in School - Christian Newswire
Elementary school teacher tells student she’s not allowed to write about God as her idol
Teacher seizes candy canes, says ‘Jesus is not allowed’ | Education News
Wisconsin college bars student's 'Jesus Loves You' valentines, prompting suit
How many do you want?
These are all byproduct of the illegal and contrived "wall of separation".
Ditto here... that is EXACTLY my point.
Yes... children are very imaginative when they are small. I should know.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
But that doesn't mean that homosexuality is caused by the abuse, only that some men eroticize the abuse.
If we go by what science says, then homosexuality should be more common, but given that it is counternormative, it isn't, and abuse can occur through this.
Homosexual orientation-from nature, not abuse: A critique of Roberts, Glymour, and Koenen (2013) - PubMed
The Rind et al. study has been criticized by many scientists and researchers, on the grounds that its methodology and conclusions are poorly designed and statistically flawed.[4][5][6] I
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Note, that study is an earlier one that isn't based on homosexuality behavior and child abuse: "The Rind et al. controversy was a debate in the scientific literature, public media, and government legislatures in the United States regarding a 1998 peer reviewed meta-analysis of the self-reported harm caused by child sexual abuse (CSA)."
But, I will respectfully concede that it calls into question the author of the study.
Still I don't disagree with Rind's suggestion that linking homosexual behavior with abuse is problematic given the ubiquity of it in animal behavior and that it is counternormative, which leads to it being linked with maladaptive behavior. Rind isn't the only researcher questioning this:
Does Maltreatment in Childhood Affect Sexual Orientation in Adulthood?
Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that all homosexuality tendencies is due to abuse. I'm just saying that those who have been abused have a high probability of having identity issues. And since the percentage is high, there should be enough love in people to find counseling if they discover that indeed they have been abused.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
CRT isn't taught in grade school.
My cousin is gay. Should we not teach in schools that gay people exist in the world? Like, what do you mean by "homosexuality" exactly?
Activism isn't a good thing?
Last I checked they still teach math, reading, history, geography, writing and the golden rule. I have a niece and nephew in grade school. I just helped them with their geography lesson the other day.
Yes, critical race theory is being taught in public schools
Evidence says otherwise
In what course? What class? In what context?
I think we forget the position we have in parents. If I said to my child, "You are just like me, I had trouble in English just like you.", we have just validated that it was OK to have difficulty in English and they won't overcome it.
Case in point was my daughter who said she couldn't. I said she can and she did.
If a son, who doesn't even have the capacity to understand just what they are and mean say something like "I'm a girl" and the parents said "I guess you are", we just validated a thought whereas if we were to ask, "Why do you say that?" Their answer would probably be, "Because I want to play house like a girl". The proper answer would be... "Then just go play house, it is perfectly alright but you are still a boy. Science says you are a boy and I know you are a boy". He would leave knowing he is a boy and not be hung up that he has a soft side to his character.
Likewise if a young girl says, "I'm a boy" and we asked, "Why do you think I'm a boy" and she replied, "I like playing with the boys and roughhousing" then we can say "Go play with the boys but you are still a girl because science says you are a girl and your mom is saying you are a girl" and we didn't validate what she didn't even know what she was talking about. She would leave knowing that her athletic desires are OK and be secured that she is still a girl.
This is, of course, if no abuse had happened. If their is abuse, counseling is needed.
What course? What application?
What do you mean by activism? BLM? Is that a subject? Capitalism is WRONG! Is that a subject? Rich people are selfish! Is that a course? Does that mean poor people can't be selfish? CRT - White people are privileged. Really?
So, what activism? What course?
Actually, I don't think they do. Ask them to name the continents and 3 countries in each continent. (If it's geography)
Ask them to write in cursive and create a paragraph on a subject.
Ask them to do a math problem without using a calculator.
Ask them to read and see how they read.
Now, OF COURSE, some can do that but
The intensity of remediation was particularly apparent at public 2-year institutions: almost one-half of their incoming students (vs. 21 percent of those at public 4-year institutions) took two or more remedial courses, and 26 percent (vs. 9 percent at public 4-year institutions) took remedial courses across multiple subjects. On average, remedial students at public 2-year institutions took about three remedial courses (vs. two courses at public 4-year institutions).
Not all students who enrolled in remedial courses passed them.
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2016/2016405.pdf
This ISN'T a badge of honor for our current educational system.