The Perpetrated Lie of Today's Separation of Church and State

[Father Heathen]

It isn't what I see, it is what I know. Education is education... just isn't YOUR education.

So you wouldn't mind if your tax dollars were used to teach shariah to children in Muslim schools?

 

[Kenny]

My tax dollars do fund religious schools. Ontario has a Catholic school system that runs in parallel to the public system.

The arrangement has led to some wacky outcomes. Because it's publicly funded, it has to abide by all the normal rules for government except where it has a specific exemption for matters of the Catholic faith.

Because of this, secular courts have had to rule on exactly what the Catholic faith says about various issues. For instance, there was a famous case where a secular judge got to decide that a gay student taking his same-sex date to the prom at a Catholic school doesn't violate Catholic teaching:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/gay-teen-wins-fight-over-catholic-prom-1.348831

That's the sort of thing you're asking for when you ask for public money. Taxpayer funds always come with rules attached. Once your denomination starts suckling at the public teat (more than it is already, I mean), it may find it difficult to quit cold turkey. Are you sure that you'd be ready to abide by every rule that a secular government decides to impose on the funds you get?

Not if they are vouchers... and you don't try to have the government control the education. When government controls education, we have what we have today... indoctrination.

 

[Kenny]

So you wouldn't mind if your tax dollars were used to teach shariah to children in Muslim schools?

not at all. Freedom means freedom.

 

[Kenny]

That isn't what "freedom from religion" means unless you're somehow incapable of practicing your faith without imposing it upon others.

No problem with your statement.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not if they are vouchers... and you don't try to have the government control the education. When government controls education, we have what we have today... indoctrination.

So you want taxpayer money with no oversight? That's not how things work when you have an accountable, transparent government.

Do you want an accountable, transparent government?

Edit: not as an atheist, but just as a citizen and taxpayer, I demand accountability in my government to make sure it's spending the money entrusted to it well. If your church or religious school receives taxpayer funds, this means that the affairs of your church or school become the business of every taxpayer... i.e. government oversightis completely appropriate.

 

[Kenny]

So you want taxpayer money with no oversight? That's not how things work when you have an accountable, transparent government.

Do you want an accountable, transparent government?

Edit: not as an atheist, but just as a citizen and taxpayer, I demand accountability in my government to make sure it's spending the money entrusted to it well. If your church or religious school receives taxpayer funds, this means that the affairs of your church or school become the business of every taxpayer... i.e. government oversightis completely appropriate.

The oversight comes with your test scores (you must pass the test) and a report card. What kind of other oversight would be necessary?

Currently their "oversight" isn't doing so good.

And remember, this is about original intent of separation of church and state.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The oversight comes with your test scores (you must pass the test) and a report card. What kind of other oversight would be necessary?

For one thing, with government funding generally comes government curriculum requirements.

And you can expect other things as well. For instance, every publicly-funded school here is required to accommodate a gay-straight alliance student club if any student requests it. You might think that this violates the religious tenets of our Catholic schools, but secular courts have ruled that it doesn't.

Depending on the laws where you are, you may also find that, by becoming a government contractor, your state is legally obliged to make your grandchild's private school follow the same anti-discrimination rules as the government itself: no "statement of faith" or whatnot that staff have to sign off on, no ability to restrict admissions to only the kids of Christian parents.

Just look around at all the Christian adoption agencies that used to get government funds but ended up shutting down rather than live by all the rules they were asked to follow. You think you can get a similar funding arrangement without running into the same conflicts? Really?

Currently their "oversight" isn't doing so good.

Whatever faults government oversight has, you can read the Ryan Report to see how much worse things are when governments hand over their authority to churches.

And regardless of whether you like government oversight, it comes as a package deal with government money. If you don't want the government all up in your business, then don't start suckling at the taxpayer teat.

And remember, this is about original intent of separation of church and state.

Yes. On that, maybe read the document that the term came from: Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists.

 

[Kenny]

Whatever faults government oversight has, you can read the Ryan Report to see how much worse things are when governments hand over their authority to churches.

And regardless of whether you like government oversight, it comes as a package deal with government money. If you don't want the government all up in your business, then don't start suckling at the taxpayer teat.

Except we aren't talking about handing authority to churches (where did you come up with that?)

And you NAILED the reason why it is SUPPOSE to be LIMITED government

Yes. On that, maybe read the document that the term came from: Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists.

Sounds like you need to re-read the OP which deals with it. Or conveniently ignore historical evidence.

.

For one thing, with government funding generally comes government curriculum requirements.

And you can expect other things as well. For instance, every publicly-funded school here is required to accommodate a gay-straight alliance student club if any student requests it. You might think that this violates the religious tenets of our Catholic schools, but secular courts have ruled that it doesn't.

Depending on the laws where you are, you may also find that, by becoming a government contractor, your state is legally obliged to make your grandchild's private school follow the same anti-discrimination rules as the government itself: no "statement of faith" or whatnot that staff have to sign off on, no ability to restrict admissions to only the kids of Christian parents.

Just look around at all the Christian adoption agencies that used to get government funds but ended up shutting down rather than live by all the rules they were asked to follow. You think you can get a similar funding arrangement without running into the same conflicts? Really?

All of this has nothing to do with the OP. Open a different thread?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All of this has nothing to do with the OP. Open a different thread?

Hey - this is your tangent. You're the one who jumped from church-state separation to religious freedom to "my religious freedom means my grandson gets to go to private school for free with no strings attached."

 

[Father Heathen]

not at all. Freedom means freedom.

We both know you're being dishonest. Neither you nor I would approve of our tax dollars being used to fund the insidious indoctrination of children.

 

[Father Heathen]

Not if they are vouchers... and you don't try to have the government control the education. When government controls education, we have what we have today... indoctrination.

What do you mean by "indoctrination"? Scientific literacy?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not if they are vouchers... and you don't try to have the government control the education. When government controls education, we have what we have today... indoctrination.

Indoctrination? Of .... what?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What do you mean by "indoctrination"? Scientific literacy?

My money is on "teaching respect for others" and "not trying to make gay kids hate themselves."

 

[Kenny]

We both know you're being dishonest. Neither you nor I would approve of our tax dollars being used to fund the insidious indoctrination of children.

Yet, that is exactly what they are doing today... so?

Let's be honest!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yet, that is exactly what they are doing today... so?

Let's be honest!

They aren't doing that to your grandkid, though. You told us that they go to a private Christian school that you approve of.

"Problem" solved. Your freedom - or rather, the freedom of your grandkid's parents - is intact.

Subsidizing your grandkid's private school tuition would be a special privilege. It wouldn't have anything to do with anyone's rights or fundamental freedoms.

 

[Windwalker]

I think you have misunderstood what I have said (and, at the least, can't find where I said anything like above)

I thought I said I had no problem with the Koran scriptures and passages from the Heart Sutra. Please show me where I said otherwise.

You have no issue with all the world's religions have a religion bazaar in public schools? You feel having religions with tables set up in the hallways, each with religious literature and representatives selling religion to the school children, like booths at a county fair, is appropriate in public schools, and they all are paid for by taxpayers? Hare Krishna booth, right next to the Jehovah's Witnesses, right next to the Catholics?

Do you think any of that is appropriate? If not, why not?

Isn't having the Ten Commandments hanging on the wall of the school, the same thing? Why is it there? What purpose does it serve? Can you answer this?

I really don't understand the church statement. Have I intimated that we should have the whole of the school should listen to a preaching?

You believe passages from Christian scripture should be hanging on the walls. Why is it there? For what purpose? To teach religion? To teach one religion's beliefs about God to the children? Should any religion be in there doing that?

Again... I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said that foot-washing was anti-Christian (or at least that was my attempt). The "anti-Christian" was that it was ok to have foot-washing for Muslims and yet be anti-Christian by the school.

This reasoning, IMV, is a copout and a white-wash:
"What makes this different, though, is that the foot baths themselves can be used by anyone, don't have any symbolic value and are not stylized in a religious way."

I'm sure you don't really believe that statement.

Yes, I accept that as it is pretty straight forward, rational, reasonable, and logical. Plus, this is from the ACLU saying it's not the same thing as promoting a religion at all. If anyone is going to object, it would be them! Are you going to claim the ACLU is pro-Islam and anti-Christian??

This is just cynicism, as well as a bit paranoid.

If they wanted to post passages from the Koran on the walls, then the ACLU would cry foul, as would I!

And none of that, is anti-religion in the least. It is pro-neutrality. That's all it is.

For centuries no university needed a foot wash. They built it because of a Muslim desire... but it isn't religious in purpose? I know you don't believe that.

That is absolutely not true. It came as a safety concern, not a request from Muslims. I quoted the article. You read the quote. The request came from the janitorial staff out of safety concerns! Are you just going to say, that's a lie, it's a big Muslim conspiracy?

If so, doesn't this sound more like conspiracy theory paranoia? It seems like make-believe persecution complex. Does this sound reasonable to you? I agree with their rationale here, and I'm not anti-Christian. I expect Christians to be reasonable fair, and self-honest. If they are, I can't see how they can see a problem here.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yet, that is exactly what they are doing today... so?

Let's be honest!

Yes. Let's.
How are they?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

If there is no explicit article that states the separation of Church and State, this implies the possibility that there is no such a separation (if it demonstrated).


A constitutional principle is to be explicitly specified in the Constitution.

The first amendment does not say anything specific.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Would it make sense to interpret this without a separation of church and state?

 

[Kenny]

What do you mean by "indoctrination"? Scientific literacy?

@SkepticThinker
CRT, homosexuality, activism et al

instead of, math, reading, history, geography, writing, respect authority and love your neighbor et al.

 

[Kenny]

You have no issue with all the world's religions have a religion bazaar in public schools? You feel having religions with tables set up in the hallways, each with religious literature and representatives selling religion to the school children, like booths at a county fair, is appropriate in public schools, and they all are paid for by taxpayers? Hare Krishna booth, right next to the Jehovah's Witnesses, right next to the Catholics?

Do you think any of that is appropriate? If not, why not?

Isn't having the Ten Commandments hanging on the wall of the school, the same thing? Why is it there? What purpose does it serve? Can you answer this?

I think you are asking the wrong questions...

Why should one be anti-religion? Why should we throw out faith just because one is in school? You have everything else on the walls, what do you have against the ten commandments on the wall or other faiths? How did you go from walls to booths? Why do you exaggerate? What is your agenda?

I think those are better questions.

Not to mention many of the structures of DC have no problem having them all.