The Pope on women and gays

[Godobeyer]

@Godobeyer

I was going to answer your posts seriously, but I see now that you are just trying to attack Catholicism. You are not interested in trying to understand or learn. You are being extremely rude with your snarky arrogance and are derailing the thread. Stop it, or I'll start reporting you. Maybe you should take a cue from FearGod in this thread on how to ask questions without being disrespectful.

This is not Christians DIR, this is debate forum DIR

How telling facts,and post a questions become as disrespectful !!


Don't run away , tell me : Where the Christians following Jesus (pbuh) exactly ?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This is not Christians DIR, this is debate forum DIR

How telling facts,and post a questions become as disrespectful !!


Don't run away , tell me : Where the Christians following Jesus (pbuh) exactly ?

You are derailing this topic. You basically are expecting a rundown of Catholicism as a religion, when that's not what this topic is about. Alcohol, nuns and circumcision have nothing to do with the Pope's recent statement about apologizing to the gay community. Plus, I know you're not asking out of curiosity. You just want to bash Catholicism, because you're a religious supremacist that thinks that Islam (your version of it, anyway) is the "only true religion". You insult Christians by portraying us as hedonists who don't care about our religion and that we're so stupid we don't know what the Bible says. I'm sick of it and you need to stop.

 

[Godobeyer]

You are derailing this topic. You basically are expecting a rundown of Catholicism as a religion, when that's not what this topic is about. Alcohol, nuns and circumcision have nothing to do with the Pope's recent statement about apologizing to the gay community. Plus, I know you're not asking out of curiosity. You just want to bash Catholicism, because you're a religious supremacist that thinks that Islam (your version of it, anyway) is the "only true religion". You insult Christians by portraying us as hedonists who don't care about our religion and that we're so stupid we don't know what the Bible says. I'm sick of it and you need to stop.

I don't disrespect, I post interesting points.
You don't want to answer instead of that you consider my questions as disrespect!

You always ask me to stop telling my opinion!!!

Can you plz stop me ,or you stop ask me to stop ?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't disrespect, I post interesting points.
You don't want to answer instead of that you consider my questions as disrespect!

You always ask me to stop telling my opinion!!!

Can you plz stop me ,or you stop ask me to stop ?

If you want to ask Catholics about our views on alcohol, celibacy, circumcision, etc. then start a thread and do so.

Say your opinion if you want, because that doesn't mean I have to respond. I'm not here to be interrogated. To me, you're being rude. If you don't recognize it, that's not my problem.

I do have a simple question for you, though: Do you believe that sexually active gay people should be put to death?

 

[Godobeyer]

If you want to ask Catholics about our views on alcohol, celibacy, circumcision, etc. then start a thread and do so.

Say your opinion if you want, because that doesn't mean I have to respond. I'm not here to be interrogated. To me, you're being rude. If you don't recognize it, that's not my problem.

I do have a simple question for you, though: Do you believe that sexually active gay people should be put to death?

Instead of giving answsers
You seems you put my questions and notes as provocations

My questions were simple too, why you affraid to answser !?

See how I answser
-No I don't believe

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I applaud the pope. He's right that the church can too often have a judgemental tone when speaking to the lgbt community. I also applaud his commitment to stick to godly principles in an increasingly pagan culture

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Instead of giving answsers
You seems you put my questions and notes as provocations

My questions were simple too, why you affraid to answser !?

Alcohol - The quote from Paul was simply warning against drunkenness. The quote from Leviticus was referring to an episode where a couple of priests were drunk and tried to offer a sacrifice in the Temple. Nowhere in the Bible is alcohol completely banned. Jesus drank wine and He also turned water into wine at the Wedding in Cana. In fact, nay-sayers accused Christ of being a drunkard (Matthew 11:19).

Nuns - Nuns are female ascetics/monastics. They make the decision to leave worldly life (i.e. marriage, a job in the secular world, etc.) out of devotion to God and a strong desire to draw as close to Him as possible. Some of them are involved missionary activities and others live a life of solitude and contemplation in a monastery. Monks are their male counterparts. Jesus Himself was a celibate ascetic. He never married or had children. St. Paul was also a celibate ascetic after his conversion to Christianity. Most of the Church Fathers and early Christian Saints and Martyrs were the same.

Circumcision - I already touched on that. Not sure what else you want to know.

See how I answser
-No I don't believe

Okay. Naik thinks that gays should be executed: https://tifrib.com/zakir-naik/

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I understand from Bible.

The Bible said don't drink alcholo,most of the Christians drink.
Homosexual is prohibit in Bible , most of the Christians had no problem of it.
Jesus (pbuh) did the circumcision,most of the Chritians don't.
Bible prohibit the adultery, most of the Christians had no problem with that.


Everyone you disagree with him you accuse his reputation ?

Sorry; it's does exist only in your mind.

Wtf are you talking about saying 'most Christians support adultery?

 

[Godobeyer]

Wtf are you talking about saying 'most Christians support adultery?

You said,that's not what I actualy said

 

[Godobeyer]

Alcohol - The quote from Paul was simply warning against drunkenness. The quote from Leviticus was referring to an episode where a couple of priests were drunk and tried to offer a sacrifice in the Temple. Nowhere in the Bible is alcohol completely banned. Jesus drank wine and He also turned water into wine at the Wedding in Cana. In fact, nay-sayers accused Christ of being a drunkard (Matthew 11:19).

Ok this may debatable

Nuns - Nuns are female ascetics/monastics. They make the decision to leave worldly life (i.e. marriage, a job in the secular world, etc.) out of devotion to God and a strong desire to draw as close to Him as possible. Some of them are involved missionary activities and others live a life of solitude and contemplation in a monastery. Monks are their male counterparts. Jesus Himself was a celibate ascetic. He never married or had children. St. Paul was also a celibate ascetic after his conversion to Christianity. Most of the Church Fathers and early Christian Saints and Martyrs were the same.

This is addition,my point is :

Jesus(pbuh) never ask to woman or man to leave worldly life (marriage) to be good Christian ?

Circumcision - I already touched on that. Not sure what else you want to know.

No most of Christians "the followers" don't circumicision,why they don't follow Jesus(pbuh) ?

Okay. Naik thinks that gays should be executed: https://tifrib.com/zakir-naik/

Where is video ?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ok this may debatable

No, it's really not. It's just a fact that alcohol is never prohibited in the Bible. If Islam forbids alcohol, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity.

This is addition,my point is :

Jesus(pbuh) never ask to woman or man to leave worldly life (marriage) to be good Christian ?

Christianity doesn't have the same rules about "addition" as Muslims do. Are you a Salafist?

In Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity, we rely not only on the Bible but on Sacred Tradition. It's obvious that asceticism was accepted and practiced among Christians from the earliest times - starting with Christ Himself - so we accept it as part of the Faith.

No most of Christians "the followers" don't circumicision,why they don't you follow Jesus(pbuh) ?

Jesus was a Jew, that's why He was circumcised. Should Christians have to be Jews, as well? You seem to be under the impression that Christians are to completely emulate Christ in all facets of His life, like Muslims do with Muhammad. It doesn't really work that way. First of all, we believe Christ to be God. He is perfect in all aspects. He is sinless, all-knowing and all-powerful. We cannot live up to that simply because we're just humans. We're not God. The best we can do is to try to be Christ-like in our behavior towards others, to reflect His love and grace into the world. We also believe that Christ was tortured and crucified. Should Christians also seek to be tortured and crucified? I don't think so. (However, if we face martyrdom, we are to accept it with forbearance).

Christians do not practice circumcision because that was a sign of the Mosaic Covenant. It was a symbol of tribal identity, as well. Christ inaugurated a New Covenant with all of humanity. Instead of circumcision, we have the Sacrament of Baptism. (Also, notice that circumcision ignores females, whereas men and women are equals under the New Covenant). The Mosaic Covenant is no longer valid. (Galatians 3.)

Where is video ?

They discuss it starting at about the 10 minute mark, and he says "the punishment for homosexuality is death" at about 12:05.
Transcript:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120716164319/http://www.onlyislam.net/ramadhaan/fffff/Episode23.pdf

 

[Desert Snake]

No most of Christians "the followers" don't circumicision,why they don't follow Jesus(pbuh) ?

Not sure what context you are using here. Physical circumcision is technically taught against, for Xians. Physical circumcision is one might do if they /the xian,, was to follow all the torah laws. And that is not even possible, so, circumcision is not taught in xianity.

 

[Godobeyer]

No, it's really not. It's just a fact that alcohol is never prohibited in the Bible. If Islam forbids alcohol, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity.

Does the anyone could take his beer to Church and drink it there ?

Christianity doesn't have the same rules about "addition" as Muslims do. Are you a Salafist?

I am Muslim, and you are Catholic
Jesus (pbuh) never beed Catholic.

In Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity, we rely not only on the Bible but on Sacred Tradition. It's obvious that asceticism was accepted and practiced among Christians from the earliest times - starting with Christ Himself - so we accept it as part of the Faith.

Protestant and Catholicism and ...etc are just addition labels/beliefs to Christianity.

Jesus was a Jew, that's why He was circumcised. Should Christians have to be Jews, as well? You seem to be under the impression that Christians are to completely emulate Christ in all facets of His life, like Muslims do with Muhammad. It doesn't really work that way. First of all, we believe Christ to be God. He is perfect in all aspects. He is sinless, all-knowing and all-powerful. We cannot live up to that simply because we're just humans. We're not God. The best we can do is to try to be Christ-like in our behavior towards others, to reflect His love and grace into the world. We also believe that Christ was tortured and crucified. Should Christians also seek to be tortured and crucified? I don't think so. (However, if we face martyrdom, we are to accept it with forbearance).

Jesus (pbuh) was Jew,why Church adopt the Jewish scripture "Torah" ?

Christians do not practice circumcision because that was a sign of the Mosaic Covenant. It was a symbol of tribal identity, as well. Christ inaugurated a New Covenant with all of humanity. Instead of circumcision, we have the Sacrament of Baptism. (Also, notice that circumcision ignores females, whereas men and women are equals under the New Covenant). The Mosaic Covenant is no longer valid. (Galatians 3.)

Since Jesus(pbuh) was Ok with that,then why Christians reject it!?

They discuss it starting at about the 10 minute mark, and he says "the punishment for homosexuality is death" at about 12:05.
Transcript:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120716164319/http://www.onlyislam.net/ramadhaan/fffff/Episode23.pdf

You are good searcher !

That's Hadith,I am not sure about it's validation ,but why you blame Islam in something aldreay exist in Bible ?

BTW most of Muslims countries don't "punishment of homosexuality by death" exactly as West.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Does the anyone could take his beer to Church and drink it there ?

Not in the sanctuary or during the Liturgy, no. That would be very inappropriate.

I am Muslim, and you are Catholic
Jesus (pbuh) never beed Catholic.

And? He wasn't Muslim, either.

Protestant and Catholicism and ...etc are just addition labels/beliefs to Christianity.

What's your point? There's a bunch of different Muslim denominations, as well.

Jesus (pbuh) was Jew,why Church adopt the Jewish scripture "Torah" ?

Because Judaism is the root of Christianity.

Since Jesus(pbuh) was Ok with that,then why Christians reject it!?

I already explained why.

You are good searcher !

It's called Google.

That's Hadith,I am not sure about it's validation ,but why you blame Islam in something aldreay exist in Bible ?

If a Christian said that gays should be killed, they'd be shouted down. They would not be big stars among Christians and used to try to bring non-Christians into the religion, like you are doing with him. So are you going to keep using his videos? I sure wouldn't.

BTW most of Muslims countries don't "punishment of homosexuality by death" exactly as West.

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

[YmirGF]

The Pope has differentiated between church teachings versus how those who may violate church teachings should be treated. IOW, it's the "hate the sin, not the sinner" approach.

Regardless, one is still encouraged to hate... that rarely ends well.

 

[JoStories]

Me too. He's a breath of fresh air. However, my patience with him blowing JUST air is starting to wear thin.

Agreed but IMO, he has to start somewhere and this interview was a good starting point, among other things he has done and said.

 

[JoStories]

I would wonder if for him 'ask forgiveness' means accept gay people completely and totally, as humans that want to love and have that happiness like anyone else. I would ask the Pope if he means the Church should accept gay couples and families into the religious life without hesitation, in love and goodwill. If he does not mean that by it, I must conclude this is a way of trying to draw back some members.

That may be the case and it seems doubtful to me that he has the sway to overturn 2000 years of bigotry, however, at least he is making an effort to recognize that gays are humans too. Whether or not they can marry within the RCC or even be an accepted member seems, IMO, to be a separate issue.

 

[JoStories]

I'm so sorry for the loss of your beloved. I'm in love with someone who I feel much the same about. I'm also grieving the loss of my mother. No, I don't think I'm damned because of my sexual orientation or gender identity. That's just how some people want to make me feel. I know God is love. What truly damns us is hatred, greed, hubris, apathy, etc. Personally speaking, I've experienced hell while in the depths of suicidal depressive despair. Hell is a state of mind and your state of mind is a reflection of the state of your soul, so you can experience hell while still alive on this plane. Hell is just a state of separation from God.

First of all, I am very sorry for the loss of your mother. I am lucky enough to still have mine and I cherish each day Frank. Please accept my deepest sympathies. As for your lover, I hope the two of you live a long love filled life. What I had with my partner was joy. Nothing short of that. And I completely get hell my friend. Been there, done that. I agree that hell is a state of mind. The Abyss, as Nietzsche so aptly wrote about, can suck one in and swallow them whole.

 

[JoStories]

Is he still a pope and believing what in the bible.

Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."

I can quote scripture too Fear. Love thy neighbor as thyself. And that is just one. You can claim that that verse is still germane today but its not. What of the gays in Christ's time? And please point out in the Bible where Jesus spoke about homosexuality. I do NOT mean Paul, I mean Jesus and him alone. You can't because its not there.

 

[JoStories]

Yes of course, but i mean how he reconcile between what in the bible and his own view.

Perhaps he realizes that the Bible, just like every other book ever written was written by men and women and NOT some fax from God. Perhaps he realizes that that verse was germane only in the time frame it was written, which, btw, is LONG before your version of God, as in Jesus. Perhaps he tires of the rules set in opposition to one another for one group versus another and wishes to accept all humans as humans and not some lesser than group that you seem to wish to place some of us into. Perhaps he sees himself as a true servant of God who loves all people and puts them before himself, you know, that pesky thing about humility and all. Perhaps he sees that views such as yours are not only harmful but can be devastating to some.