The Power Of Circular Reasoning

[Left Coast]

The rationale is that doing so improves our experience of being. It doesn't matter whether or not what we believe is true, or not, because there is no way for us to determine that regarding the nature and existence of 'God'. What matters, then, is how the belief functions for us in our lives. Once knowledge (truth) has been denied us, we are left with value as the most reasonable criteria for choosing what to believe and what not to.

What value are you talking about?

Atheism is the more illogical choice since it rejects the positive value possibilities that theism offers us, based on nothing. Whereas at least theism does offer us the positive possibilities that come with acting through faith.

You are ignoring the many negative possibilities that come through believing things that are not verifiably true/unfalsifiable. The history of religion is full of these examples.

I can't think of any logical reason that "God" as we generally define it (the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that exists) would care what we believe regarding it.

Good to know. Please inform the vast majority of your theistic compatriots who believe in the Abrahamic/omnimax God.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Your exaggeration here aside, I'm sorry I disappointed you and failed to discuss something that interested you. But to make amends I'll try to discuss whatever you wish. Can't guarantee I'll stick with it if it starts to flag or goes off track, but I'll give it a shot.

I Kangaroo Feathers want to talk about ________________________________________________________ .

Ball's in your court KF. What's it going to be?

.

The superiority of 1st generation Battletech to Macross/ Robotech.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You are free to believe that the flood is nonsense. I believe the Bible.....you don't.
We will all find out one day.



The apostle Paul told married Christians: “The unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy.” (1 Corinthians 7:14-17)

Because of the ‘merit’ of the believer, the young children of the union are considered holy, under divine care and protection—not "unclean" as are children who do not have even one believing parent. Children learn what they live and the children of those parents in Noah's day were a really bad role models ensuring that none of their children merited salvation. The children in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah exhibited the same depravity as their parents.....they were not spared either. IMO, this reinforces the importance of teaching children good morals and compliance with God's laws and standards.

God is the Universal Sovereign of all humans living, whether they accept him as such or not. A Sovereign has the right to dictate to his subjects what is law and what penalties are appropriate in any given circumstance. His subjects do not have a right to dictate their own terms of existence. Rebellion cannot not tolerated....so, we either shape up or we ship out.



The flood was used by Jesus to picture the situation that would be repeated upon his return (Matthew 24:37-39)....we are seeing it right now. You can deny it all you like....but it doesn't change anything.

Cannot possibly agree with anything that you say, but I note something that I'll bet you didn't, and will likely not like when you do see it.

You claim God is right to kill infants who have the "wrong parents," (ones who will bring them up to believe what the parents do),, but not for anything that those infants have done themselves. Yet, is it not the same with religion? You say it yourself, children will be brought up to believe as their parents do...the children of Christian parents will likely be Christians, of Muslim or Hindu parents, Muslims or Hindus, and of atheist parents, more atheists. So why, tell us, isn't God killing off all those Muslims, Hindus, and even the Christians who haven't the sensed to be a JW, like you?

According to you, God set the standard....and now, once again, fails to uphold it. How do you explain that? For me, all it says is that your thinking is muddled with too much dogma, and too little real thought.

 

[Deeje]

Cannot possibly agree with anything that you say, but I note something that I'll bet you didn't, and will likely not like when you do see it.

You see things through your own lens, like we all do. So if that is the case, whose lens is the correct one....obviously, the one that allows clear crisp vision? There are so many things, both internal and external, that can cloud it. The heart will have its way. (Jeremiah 17:9)

You claim God is right to kill infants who have the "wrong parents," (ones who will bring them up to believe what the parents do),, but not for anything that those infants have done themselves.

It is said in scripture that God has foreknowledge of things that have not yet happened.....he can see the future...something that was not granted to humans. It's why we are encouraged to obey the one who has the kind of vision that we do not have.
God could already see what kind of people those children would grow up to be in that environment. The creator of justice does not then become a hypocrite. No one loses their life in this world who does not deserve to....but, what constitutes "deserving" is not our decision to make.

The other side of that coin however, is God's promise to restore the lives of those, who by circumstances beyond their control, did not have an opportunity to be the kind of people who could become acceptable to God under different circumstances. I believe that God will provide those circumstances in the future. The extreme conditions under which both Noah and Lot survived a divine judgment, creates precedents for us. Does God provide the way out of another judgment event that is to come, according to scripture? (Matthew 24:21-22) The "tribulation" that is coming has no precedent.
But God tells us how to save ourselves. It requires a positive response to a message that is preached all over the world. The good news is about how God's kingdom will end failed human rulership and replace it. (Matthew 12:14; Daniel 2:44)

Yet, is it not the same with religion? You say it yourself, children will be brought up to believe as their parents do...the children of Christian parents will likely be Christians, of Muslim or Hindu parents, Muslims or Hindus, and of atheist parents, more atheists. So why, tell us, isn't God killing off all those Muslims, Hindus, and even the Christians who haven't the sensed to be a JW, like you?

As I said, God knows what is in the hearts of all. There are no humans on earth whom the Father does not know and cannot evaluate their potential to become useful citizens of his incoming kingdom.

Jesus already foretold that in this time of the end, "few" would actually prove to be the kind of people that God is looking for. They will take the easy road because a 'cramped and narrow road' does not suit them. (Matthew 7:13-14) Selfishness drives human behavior. Christ taught selflessness....opposites.

Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35 says that "...God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."

So, no matter what nation or religious system a person may have been raised in, God will know who has the potential to be a good and obedient citizen of his Kingdom, and provide them with the means to get to know his truth. (John 6:44; 65) They will then decide for themselves, what to do about that knowledge. But I assure you, that those who are "drawn" by God will have a hard time rejecting him. Seeing he truth is like opening a door to the most amazing future that one could ever contemplate, whilst at the same time explaining why we are going through the trials of this life. But this truth is withheld from those who have no love for God and no intention to follow his rules. They are permitted to keep their own ill informed delusions. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

According to you, God set the standard....and now, once again, fails to uphold it. How do you explain that? For me, all it says is that your thinking is muddled with too much dogma, and too little real thought.

Understanding the way God works to select the citizens of his kingdom to come, explains everything.The one thing that God has demanded from his worshippers right from the beginning is obedience. Very few are inclined to give him that consistently, justifying all manner of exemptions to suit what they want to believe. Obedience is not just about the easy things....the hard things need to be observed too. This is what separates the sheep from the goats.

What is muddled is the thinking of people who do not know God and therefore do not respect him or his way of dealing with and accepting the challenge to his sovereignty that occurred in Eden.

If people want to judge the judge, based on their own faulty reasoning, then they will fare badly I'm afraid....they can try, but it won't get them very far.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

You see things through your own lens, like we all do. So if that is the case, whose lens is the correct one....obviously, the one that allows clear crisp vision? There are so many things, both internal and external, that can cloud it. The heart will have its way. (Jeremiah 17:9)



It is said in scripture that God has foreknowledge of things that have not yet happened.....he can see the future...something that was not granted to humans. It's why we are encouraged to obey the one who has the kind of vision that we do not have.
God could already see what kind of people those children would grow up to be in that environment. The creator of justice does not then become a hypocrite. No one loses their life in this world who does not deserve to....but, what constitutes "deserving" is not our decision to make.

The other side of that coin however, is God's promise to restore the lives of those, who by circumstances beyond their control, did not have an opportunity to be the kind of people who could become acceptable to God under different circumstances. I believe that God will provide those circumstances in the future. The extreme conditions under which both Noah and Lot survived a divine judgment, creates precedents for us. Does God provide the way out of another judgment event that is to come, according to scripture? (Matthew 24:21-22) The "tribulation" that is coming has no precedent.
But God tells us how to save ourselves. It requires a positive response to a message that is preached all over the world. The good news is about how God's kingdom will end failed human rulership and replace it. (Matthew 12:14; Daniel 2:44)



As I said, God knows what is in the hearts of all. There are no humans on earth whom the Father does not know and cannot evaluate their potential to become useful citizens of his incoming kingdom.

Jesus already foretold that in this time of the end, "few" would actually prove to be the kind of people that God is looking for. They will take the easy road because a 'cramped and narrow road' does not suit them. (Matthew 7:13-14) Selfishness drives human behavior. Christ taught selflessness....opposites.

Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35 says that "...God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."

So, no matter what nation or religious system a person may have been raised in, God will know who has the potential to be a good and obedient citizen of his Kingdom, and provide them with the means to get to know his truth. (John 6:44; 65) They will then decide for themselves, what to do about that knowledge. But I assure you, that those who are "drawn" by God will have a hard time rejecting him. Seeing he truth is like opening a door to the most amazing future that one could ever contemplate, whilst at the same time explaining why we are going through the trials of this life. But this truth is withheld from those who have no love for God and no intention to follow his rules. They are permitted to keep their own ill informed delusions. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)



Understanding the way God works to select the citizens of his kingdom to come, explains everything.The one thing that God has demanded from his worshippers right from the beginning is obedience. Very few are inclined to give him that consistently, justifying all manner of exemptions to suit what they want to believe. Obedience is not just about the easy things....the hard things need to be observed too. This is what separates the sheep from the goats.

What is muddled is the thinking of people who do not know God and therefore do not respect him or his way of dealing with and accepting the challenge to his sovereignty that occurred in Eden.

If people want to judge the judge, based on their own faulty reasoning, then they will fare badly I'm afraid....they can try, but it won't get them very far.

Has something radically changed in JW teachings? Not that that would be particularly unusual, though, I suppose. While it is true that JWs have always believed that Jehovah CAN see the future, we were always taught that he chose NOT to exercise that foreknowledge with regard to humans.

If he did allow himself to see how every human would react in the future, that would erase any possibility of "free will" and would give credence to predestination with no one being able to change what was ordained for them...and predestination was always a belief that was anathema to JWs. It would also mean that Adam and Eve were predestined to disobey God and that he saw this before it ever happened...no choice...just an evil little game with God knowing the result before he ever created them.

What you have stated here while trying to justify the eradication of tiny babies and children who never had a chance to exercise "free will" is speaking in support of predestination. God had "foreknowledge" that these children would be evil, so he just chucked out any pretense of humans having "free will" to choose what course they would follow and destroyed them because he "knew" they would end up evil...no choice on their part...no free will to choose good or evil.

Are you sure that you want to go this route?

 

[Skwim]

The superiority of 1st generation Battletech to Macross/ Robotech.

In that I am completely ignorant of science fiction cartoon games---I'm guessing that's what 1st generation Battletech to Macross/ Robotech refers to---I defer to your knowledge and experience, and will go along with whatever you say.
.

.

 

[Jos]

If he did allow himself to see how every human would react in the future, that would erase any possibility of "free will"

I'm not a Christian or anything and I'm not writing in defense of Christianity but how does an all knowing God knowing what we will do in the future predetermine our actions and negate free will? I never understood that. Foreknowledge doesn't make the actions come true so how is it a problem?

 

[nPeace]

No no. It's quite possible that there is a God and we simply don't have sufficient evidence for his existence. I'm not a strong/gnostic atheist.

The thing is though, even if it ultimately turns out there is a God, we're still not rationally justified in believing in him until we see sufficient evidence.

Additionally, any God who would expect us to believe in him without sufficient evidence, and would eternally punish us for not believing in him when he didn't provide sufficient evidence, is deeply immoral.

May I ask, what do you consider sufficient evidence?

 

[Skwim]

I'm not a Christian or anything and I'm not writing in defense of Christianity but how does an all knowing God knowing what we will do in the future predetermine our actions and negate free will? I never understood that. Foreknowledge doesn't make the actions come true so how is it a problem?

The idea is, if god knows everything, including what you will do at a particular time in the future, when that particular time arrives you cannot do other than what god saw you do, because if you could it would mean that god doesn't know everything after all. Hence, your will is not free to do otherwise.

.

 

[Left Coast]

May I ask, what do you consider sufficient evidence?

That depends entirely on the claim. When it comes to God, it depends entirely on the version of God being proposed. I think some versions of God are unfalsifiable so by definition no evidence can sufficiently confirm them since any state of affairs can be rationalized as confirmatory evidence.

 

[nPeace]

That depends entirely on the claim. When it comes to God, it depends entirely on the version of God being proposed. I think some versions of God are unfalsifiable so by definition no evidence can sufficiently confirm them since any state of affairs can be rationalized as confirmatory evidence.

I'm not asking you what would amount to sufficient evidence for a version of God, but what you would consider sufficient evidence for a God... In other words, a celestial supreme being - a creator.

 

[Left Coast]

I'm not asking you what would amount to sufficient evidence for a version of God, but what you would consider sufficient evidence for a God... In other words, a celestial supreme being - a creator.

Again, not everyone has the same definition of a "celestial supreme being." Is this God directly observable, measurable, empirically detectable in some way?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is this God directly observable, measurable, empirically detectable in some way?

Nope.

 

[Trailblazer]

The idea is, if god knows everything, including what you will do at a particular time in the future, when that particular time arrives you cannot do other than what god saw you do, because if you could it would mean that god doesn't know everything after all. Hence, your will is not free to do otherwise..

You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do simply because God knows everything you will do, since the essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things, before and well as after their occurrence...

But God's knowing is not what causes things to happen. We cause things to happen by choosing to do them and acting upon that choice. God simply knows what we will choose since God has foreknowledge.

 

[nPeace]

Again, not everyone has the same definition of a "celestial supreme being." Is this God directly observable, measurable, empirically detectable in some way?

When you say directly observable, do you mean, can be seen with the naked eye, or with the use of instruments?
Can you directly observe air?
What do you need to use in order to detect it?
What instrument do you suggest we can use to detect an all powerful supernatural being that is responsible for all forms of energy?
Can we directly observe all the forces in the universe? What instrument can we use?

Great Attractor
A mysterious intergalactic force is drawing the Milky Way galaxy inward, according to a group of Australian astronomers.

Nobody knows what, or why, is causing the immense gravitational pull, but a swarm of hundreds of nearby galaxies may help astronomers reveal the identity of the ‘Great Attractor’.

I believe you do accept two - or more - hypothetical "forces" ("dark energy" and "dark matter") that cannot be directly observed.
Why do you accept these hypotheses?
Faith? Reason? Empirical evidence? Measurements?

The so-called “Dark matter” cannot be directly observed because it gives off no radiation. This means that it does not interact with the light. Up until now, people have been asking "How do we know dark matter exists if we can't see it?" Scientists believe that there is something holding the universe together that explains why all the celestial bodies are in their motion.

Belief?
How do you measure and empirically detect an hypothetical?
Can God be measured and empirically detected?
What do you think?

 

[PureX]

What value are you talking about?

That is up to us to determine. We all decide by experience and desire what is good and what is not.

You are ignoring the many negative possibilities that come through believing things that are not verifiably true/unfalsifiable. The history of religion is full of these examples.

There is no "falsifying" the nature or existence of 'God'. There is only the choice to believe or not to believe as we see fit. And what we choose to believe determines the possibilities and the consequences. Then it comes down to what we value. If we value violence, vengeance, lust and power, then we will choose our gods accordingly. If we value love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity, we will choose our gods accordingly. Either way, our faith in our gods can help us to determine and achieve our goals.

 

[Jos]

The idea is, if god knows everything, including what you will do at a particular time in the future, when that particular time arrives you cannot do other than what god saw you do, because if you could it would mean that god doesn't know everything after all. Hence, your will is not free to do otherwise.

.

Right if we wanted to do differently we would have done differently and God would see that different action that we wanted to do but I still don't see how God foreknowing an action would mean we could only do that action and not some other action. I don't see how it negates free will. God just foreknows what someone would do, not causing them to act that way.

 

[Catholicus]

If God can't even be bothered to deliver it's own message, then why should we care?

To be exact God, did deliver the message Himself, when He took on human nature and walked in this world as Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Left Coast]

When you say directly observable, do you mean, can be seen with the naked eye, or with the use of instruments?

Either/or

Can you directly observe air?
What do you need to use in order to detect it?

Haven't you ever watched the weather guy on your local news? How do you think they detect wind speed?

What instrument do you suggest we can use to detect an all powerful supernatural being that is responsible for all forms of energy?

Being supernatural suggests being beyond nature, which would mean beyond observation and measurement. I have no idea how we detect or measure the supernatural, which is why I don't believe in it.

Can we directly observe all the forces in the universe? What instrument can we use?

At this point, no we probably can't.

Great Attractor
A mysterious intergalactic force is drawing the Milky Way galaxy inward, according to a group of Australian astronomers.

Nobody knows what, or why, is causing the immense gravitational pull, but a swarm of hundreds of nearby galaxies may help astronomers reveal the identity of the ‘Great Attractor’.

I believe you do accept two - or more - hypothetical "forces" ("dark energy" and "dark matter") that cannot be directly observed.

The gravity they exert can very much be measured. That's how astronomers know they're there. I'm not an expert on dark matter/energy so I won't be able to answer all your questions about it.

Why do you accept these hypotheses?

I accept that there is a phenomenon out there that astronomers have directly observed for which they are seeking an explanation. I have no idea what that explanation will finally be when we have the technology to understand more about it.

Faith?

No.

Reason? Empirical evidence? Measurements?

Yes.

The so-called “Dark matter” cannot be directly observed because it gives off no radiation. This means that it does not interact with the light. Up until now, people have been asking "How do we know dark matter exists if we can't see it?" Scientists believe that there is something holding the universe together that explains why all the celestial bodies are in their motion.

Belief?

Yea...belief just means being convinced something is true/real. There are good reasons for belief and bad reasons.

How do you measure and empirically detect an hypothetical?

That depends on the hypothetical.

Can God be measured and empirically detected?
What do you think?

So far it doesn't sound like it. And if there's no way to empirically detect something in any way, how do we have any rational confidence it exists?

 

[Left Coast]

That is up to us to determine. We all decide by experience and desire what is good and what is not.

So you're advocating a belief system in which we believe in things we personally prefer over things that are verifiably true. Not to be blunt, but that is a terrible idea.

There is no "falsifying" the nature or existence of 'God'. There is only the choice to believe or not to believe as we see fit. And what we choose to believe determines the possibilities and the consequences. Then it comes down to what we value. If we value violence, vengeance, lust and power, then we will choose our gods accordingly. If we value love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity, we will choose our gods accordingly. Either way, our faith in our gods can help us to determine and achieve our goals.

I'm starting a different thread about choosing what we believe, that's a whole separate discussion I think.

If faith can just as easily lead us down a path of violence, vengeance, lust, and power as it can a path of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity, then what do we need it for? I can obtain all the good things you mentioned without believing in things that are unfalsifiable/unverifiable. Which is why we don't need faith, or religion.