The Power Of Circular Reasoning

[JJ50]

"Apparently" - every scholar has his or her own opinion on the matter !

What Jesus did isn't credible if He was a mere human being - but is eminently credible if He was also God.

And what makes you think He wasn't ?

He was no sort of god, just a mere human with faults and failings, if some of the things attributed to the guy were correct.

 

[LuisDantas]

ARE...?????.....what????

as a nonbeliever looking in
you MIGHT have some insight to the faults of a religion

but Christians are self imposed?
as if the will of God is a choice?

I don't particularly believe in choices. But the very fact that atheists exist is evidence that we are not commanded by God into belief in his existence.

looks like fresh thread material

That may well be. Please feel free to start one and chime me into it.

I look forward to the exact wording that it would have. It ought to be enlightening about your perspective.

As a non christian why do you care how they follow their religion?

Why, because we all share the same world, environment, and ultimately the same moral responsibilities. Neither me nor Christians can change that even if we might sometimes want to.

I can only assume that you hold an understanding of the nature and consequences of interdependent origination that is rather unlike mine own. I stand somewhat surprised by that. It was one of the main draws of Buddhism for me. but apparently it is not nearly as universal as I once thought.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You are working from the assumptions that:

The human brain is merely mechanical

Human beings are no more than their bodies (brains included)

Nothing exists other than nature

If something isn't humanly observable (directly or with scientific instruments), it doesn't exist.

These are all mere assumptions; and amount to an idolatrous belief in the human brain.

But I am operating with direct evidence in this case, having, on several occasions, had my brain chemically shut down during surgeries, one for quite a few hours. And I assure you, those are hours in which no sense of "me" existed whatever. I see no reason to suppose that, when my brain shuts down permanently for its own reasons, there should be any difference.

 

[Left Coast]

The only alternatives to Hell are: (1) Letting the evil roam free, destroying everything and everybody; (2) annihilating the evil - thus robbing them of their wish to be eternally evil.

Are you kidding? We have other, better options, right here right now. We put people in prison. Even better, we are also starting to implement ways of rehabilitating people who do evil things so they don't do them again. We've also figured out that punishing people for thought crimes is a horrific, dystopian idea.

Which Biblical authors ? - there is development of religious thought within the Old Testament and from there to the New Testament

Let's see, the author(s) of every book of the Torah, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel...shall I go on? In the New Testament, Paul and the authors of the Gospels at least.

It was devout Christians who led the opposition to the slave trade and to slavery itself.

And it was also devout Christians who Biblically justified slavery.

You don't need science to see that violence, dishonesty etc are wrong. And without a religious revelation, ethics is merely human opinion, about which there can never be agreement.

Religious revelations don't help at all, because they're also just opinions.

 

[Left Coast]

No, because no ethical matters - no question of good or evil - were involved; in that particular instance.

But when (for example) you have to choose between being kind and being indifferent, being forgiving and being vengeful ?

Human survival and prosperity are very much involved in those choices.

In such cases, Good and Evil (which ARE supernatural) are involved.

You are simply declaring good and evil to be supernatural with no evidence. We have a natural basis for good and evil - help vs. harm.

 

[PureX]

Most scientific theories weren't delivered to "any of us alive today." They are true nonetheless.

Human beings don't always screw up.

They do when they think they have the knowledge and righteousness of God in their possession. Every time.

 

[PureX]

Because Jesus Christ is - as he said - the Light of this dark world.

As true now as when He said it.

Jesus is also the only Hope for us either as individuals or as the human race.

If you know of any other Light or Hope in this world, please let me know !

Jesus is a character in an ideological story (we call these myths). A story that is intended to represent to us an ideal. The ideal that "God's" divine spirit exists with us all, and that if we will believe this, and allow this spirit within us to guide our thoughts and actions in life, it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help us to heal and save others.

I believe this ideal is accurate because it proves itself to be true, when acted upon.

The "actuality of the messenger" is irrelevant. What we have, and what matters, now, is the story, and the ideological proposition that the story is offering us.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Which merely begs the question - why did the Big Bang happen ?

Is it required that you know the answer to everything? Is it legitimate, when you don't know, to just "slip God in there" somehow -- especially if by "God" you mean something complex enough to be intentional and creative, and especially when this seems to imply that this intentional and creative God must be in some kind of stasis, since there is no time? And then assume that somehow, in the absence of time or anything else, suddenly "wakes up" and decides to create? It's just too, too much!

But for a mere quantum fluctuation to be precursor to a Big Bang, yes, that too is an assumption (or a guess, or even a question), but it's a lot simpler than the God one, especially given that it is now known that quantum fluctuations do occur. Quantum fluctuation - Wikipedia

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Good and evil are supernatural terms - since they have no place in nature.

Not so, I think. Good and evil are human term...concepts that describe our reaction to various eventualities. If the impala could think abstractly, and conceptually, it might also find it to be an evil thing to be choking to death with a leopard's teeth clamped down on itswindpipe.

 

[Thief]

I don't particularly believe in choices

then you cannot say.....Christian belief is self imposed

 

[Catholicus]

He was no sort of god, just a mere human with faults and failings, if some of the things attributed to the guy were correct.

What faults, what failings ?

Jesus died a terrible death so as to save each of us personally. How is that a fault or failing ?

 

[JJ50]

What faults, what failings ?

Jesus died a terrible death so as to save each of us personally. How is that a fault or failing ?

Yes and so did many others who have saved others and died in the attempt. They didn't come back to life again as Jesus was supposed to have done.

 

[LuisDantas]

then you cannot say.....Christian belief is self imposed

Why not?

 

[Thief]

Why not?

your previous post.....you claim you don't believe in choices

if there can be no choice
then self imposition cannot happen

religion would then be imposed by Something Greater

 

[Thief]

I don't particularly believe in choices.

here you go

 

[Thief]

But I am operating with direct evidence in this case, having, on several occasions, had my brain chemically shut down during surgeries, one for quite a few hours. And I assure you, those are hours in which no sense of "me" existed whatever. I see no reason to suppose that, when my brain shuts down permanently for its own reasons, there should be any difference.

I reason.....there is no point in generating several billion copies of a learning device
only to have each and everyone shut down and fail.....completely

and I suspect
your frame of mind and belief
have some influence to your ability to continue

you might be able to call it quits

and it looks like you already have

 

[LuisDantas]

your previous post.....you claim you don't believe in choices

if there can be no choice
then self imposition cannot happen

religion would then be imposed by Something Greater

That is an arbitrary belief.

If you will recall, I said that I do not particularly believe in choices. That is not the same as claiming that they do not exist. I am still undecided, and may well always be.

But in any case, even if there are no choices at all, actions do exist, including self-inflicting of various forms.

 

[Thief]

That is an arbitrary belief.

If you will recall, I said that I do not particularly believe in choices. That is not the same as claiming that they do not exist. I am still undecided, and may well always be.

But in any case, even if there are no choices at all, actions do exist, including self-inflicting of various forms.

now don't get wishy washy

you have choice (I think you do)

or you don't

 

[LuisDantas]

now don't get wishy washy

you have choice (I think you do)

or you don't

Perhaps.

Honestly, I would not know. And I do not know.

 

[Thief]

Perhaps.

Honestly, I would not know. And I do not know.

in this condition.....you are led

but whatever leads you......I do not know

so

make a choice

are you in control.....having choice to say as you decide
or are you compelled?
by a greater force you do not understand