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The Prejudice of Implicit Privilege

That's not sympathetic to the idea, because it's lacking the introspection which privilege is talking about.

It's clearly sympathetic to the idea. If one recognises disadvantage this necessitates advantage. The problem is the psychological block created by the term privilege.

The approach you are advocating ignores this basic cognitive reality, then blames people for responding in exactly the way that would be expected by utilising a term with strong existing connotations.

There is plenty of scientific evidence behind this, and plenty more anecdotal evidence in this thread and related articles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology)

Framing (social sciences) - Wikipedia

Studies of priming effects have yielded discoveries that threaten our self-image as conscious and autonomous authors of our judgments and our choices...

“This complex constellation of responses occurred quickly, automatically, and effortlessly. You did not will it and you could not stop it. It was an operation of System 1. The events that took place as a result of your seeing the words happened by a process called associative activation: ideas that have been evoked trigger many other ideas, in a spreading cascade of activity in your brain. The essential feature of this complex set of mental events is its coherence. Each element is connected, and each supports and strengthens the others. The word evokes memories, which evoke emotions, which in turn evoke facial expressions and other reactions, such as a general tensing up and an avoidance tendency. The facial expression and the avoidance motion intensify the feelings to which they are linked, and the feelings in turn reinforce compatible ideas. All this happens quickly and all at once, yielding a self-reinforcing pattern of cognitive, emotional, and physical responses that is both diverse and integrated—it has been called associatively coherent.”

D Kahneman “The association machine in Thinking, Fast and Slow.”

 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's clearly sympathetic to the idea. If one recognises disadvantage this necessitates advantage. The problem is the psychological block created by the term privilege.
I disagree. Acknowledging someone else is experiencing disadvantage does not mean you're acknowledging that you, personally, have advantage. It's the idea of being called on to undersand how you benefit from a system which disadvantages other people he takes umbridge with, not the word. Because people think pointing out such a concept means they're dismissing burdens they've experienced (it's not) or blaming them for being advantaged (It's not) or blaming them for finding it hard to admit a system which benefits them disadvantages others. (It's not.)

Funny historical tangent, this is one of the reasons second wave feminism started, because first wave was largely affluent white Christian women who didn't understand the problems women of color and poor women were experiencing, who thought the first wave was largely just to uplift the already advantaged women.

Anyway it's late, I'm exhausted and now it's mostly just the two of us on this thread. Have a good night, and thanks for the nice debate.
 
I disagree. Acknowledging someone else is experiencing disadvantage does not mean you're acknowledging that you, personally, have advantage. It's the idea of being called on to undersand how you benefit from a system which disadvantages other people he takes umbridge with, not the word. Because people think pointing out such a concept means they're dismissing burdens they've experienced (it's not) or blaming them for being advantaged (It's not) or blaming them for finding it hard to admit a system which benefits them disadvantages others. (It's not.)

Funny historical tangent, this is one of the reasons second wave feminism started, because first wave was largely affluent white Christian women who didn't understand the problems women of color and poor women were experiencing, who thought the first wave was largely just to uplift the already advantaged women.

Anyway it's late, I'm exhausted and now it's mostly just the two of us on this thread. Have a good night, and thanks for the nice debate.

We'll agree to disagree :)

In general, do you think that things like priming, framing and associations have a major impact on how people respond to messages?
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
We'll agree to disagree :)

In general, do you think that things like priming, framing and associations have a major impact on how people respond to messages?

I'll chime in here because I see an potentially endless loop that needs breaking...

Certainly one should acknowledge that how one approaches a topic with a person can predict how successfully one can communicate one's message. In many places there are whole realms of discussion which are considered inappropriate because they tend to create their own weather which in turn creates a great distraction from the intent of those engaged in that context.

But we can't let those contexts rule over other contexts. Certainly the existence of a religious discussion forum is precisely jyst such a context which gives us all a needed outlet that would otherwise be an undue stress on our family or co-workers or friends.

If the word privilege is a controversial one then this implies two things: it is one disruptive of mutual good will unless one knows one's audience would accept it and this disruptiveness is itself of interest especially if the term can be seen as a non-metaphorical or not derived from some historical use with malicious associations.

I would imagine that people found the notion that they were prejudiced to be equally offensive not long ago. To be judged regarding one's familial or group beliefs is to feel challenged in a way that seems like one is getting sucker punched or that someone is intruding their rights into a space within the end of your nose (so to speak). Addressing this predictable discomfort is important.

But as a case in point...if one is wondering what separates them from others they should be given pause by the notion that those who do not have those privileges have no problem whatsoever with that same term.

It is likely that each and every one of us has some context in which we are privileged and in which we are not. The 'privilege proselytizer' then would do well to identify another's lack of privilege and only mention their own privilege. This models the idea but minimizes the risk of offense.

We already have in many cultures a sense of responsibility toward others. We may have very personal feelings about when and how one is willing to give up one's own wealth to favor another. I have found it useful to tithe (set aside money for use to give to others and not use for myself or for my personal benefit). In tithing one makes a space in one's life to let go of what is truthfully yours voluntarily. In many ways such an act is liberating. Being only immersed in our own interest is a kind of psychological prison. But being dictated to about what one should give can also feel like a prison.

We have in the US two political parties which differ in a large degree on how government should play a role in our personal means of taking care of each other. As an Independent I have always felt that we should systematically ensure that the needs of others are met, but we should just as systematically guard against the abuse of that generosity.

In any case, recognizing the need to give to others is something that everyone believes in. Though methods may differ the concept should be accepted.

When it comes to a discussion of privilege one should guard against the idea that such conversations imply that an individual should be compelled to take, involuntarily, any act of self-sacrifice. There are more causes than anyone person could help. But recognition of a systemic problem does require the privileged to see their privilege so that they can be free t o choose to take action especially if it helps to fight an injustice or suffering. One does have some small element of control (one vote) to wield that may be seen as a significant, voluntary contribution that advances our common human values and helps to distribute our accidental personal advantages.
 
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
But I wouldn't call the person prejudiced unless, after being given that knowledge, is still apathetic towards that social injustice.
I think even then you'd be imprecise with the term. Apathy isn't prejudice, a lack of concern vs. an active disdain.

That's not sympathetic to the idea, because it's lacking the introspection which privilege is talking about. It's not just about recognizing disadvantages others have, but advantages you have.
If one recognises disadvantage this necessitates advantage. The problem is the psychological block created by the term privilege.
It is unfair to say that because someone has a semantic disagreement with you over what label suits them it is because they lack introspection. I reject that there are only the two states of privileged/advantaged or underprivileged/disadvantaged. Life situation is on a spectrum that involves multiple axes and at least a state of normalcy or privilege neutral(where I think most of the wrongfully titled "white privilege" lies) between the two aforementioned.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I don't want to understate the importance of the concept of privilege in building empathy for people ho have less access, opportunity and resources in a power dynamic by simply not having the time to write about it.
Can point you in the right direction though.
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/why-its-important-to-think-about-privilege-and-why/

So, you want others to have empathy, an emotional reaction, by approaching them in a way that can easily cause the very opposite reaction towards the speaker ?

The right direction as I see it is a matter of how you frame the discussion. People, in general, don't like unfairness. You just need to point where we, as members of a society, are being unfair towards someone or some group. Stress that point enough and you win the heart of the listener ( assuming that was possible ).
 
this disruptiveness is itself of interest especially if the term can be seen as a non-metaphorical or not derived from some historical use with malicious associations.

Associations dont have to be malicious in order to have a detrimental effect.

For example, if someone says "privileged" to you what mental images does it conjure?

For me it would be top hats, monocles, posh aristocrats folk sneering at 'commoners', etc. This connection is automatic and attached to feelings/emotions regarding these associations. This primes my mind with a certain conceptualisation of privilege, one which I do not identify with.

Any attempts to convince me of my privilege now need to overcome the cognitive dissonance created by the terminology (and perhaps my emotional attitude towards top hat wearing aristocrats) rather than the issue, and we know how powerful a force cognitive dissonance can be.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Associations dont have to be malicious in order to have a detrimental effect.

For example, if someone says "privileged" to you what mental images does it conjure?

For me it would be top hats, monocles, posh aristocrats folk sneering at 'commoners', etc. This connection is automatic and attached to feelings/emotions regarding these associations. This primes my mind with a certain conceptualisation of privilege, one which I do not identify with.

Any attempts to convince me of my privilege now need to overcome the cognitive dissonance created by the terminology (and perhaps my emotional attitude towards top hat wearing aristocrats) rather than the issue, and we know how powerful a force cognitive dissonance can be.
The image you painted was so hilarious that my monocle fell out!
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
Associations dont have to be malicious in order to have a detrimental effect.

For example, if someone says "privileged" to you what mental images does it conjure?

For me it would be top hats, monocles, posh aristocrats folk sneering at 'commoners', etc. This connection is automatic and attached to feelings/emotions regarding these associations. This primes my mind with a certain conceptualisation of privilege, one which I do not identify with.

Any attempts to convince me of my privilege now need to overcome the cognitive dissonance created by the terminology (and perhaps my emotional attitude towards top hat wearing aristocrats) rather than the issue, and we know how powerful a force cognitive dissonance can be.

It doesn't help that the whole conversation doesn't start by defining what an individual, without any privilege whatsoever, is. But this is of essence. Imagine a random guy in the middle of the desert, living all alone by himself. He was born with no arms nor legs, blind and deaf from birth, with a multitude of mental health problems ranging from depression to schizophrenia. We would call that a person that has been royally screwed by life, but in the privilege talk that is just an individual born without any privileges ( or as close as one can get to that ).
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Associations dont have to be malicious in order to have a detrimental effect.

For example, if someone says "privileged" to you what mental images does it conjure?

For me it would be top hats, monocles, posh aristocrats folk sneering at 'commoners', etc. This connection is automatic and attached to feelings/emotions regarding these associations. This primes my mind with a certain conceptualisation of privilege, one which I do not identify with.

Any attempts to convince me of my privilege now need to overcome the cognitive dissonance created by the terminology (and perhaps my emotional attitude towards top hat wearing aristocrats) rather than the issue, and we know how powerful a force cognitive dissonance can be.

You are certainly correct...
It doesn't help that the whole conversation doesn't start by defining what an individual, without any privilege whatsoever, is. But this is of essence. Imagine a random guy in the middle of the desert, living all alone by himself. He was born with no arms nor legs, blind and deaf from birth, with a multitude of mental health problems ranging from depression to schizophrenia. We would call that a person that has been royally screwed by life, but in the privilege talk that is just an individual born without any privileges ( or as close as one can get to that ).

Well, lets hope that further dialog might yield better understanding with more palatable terminology!

Thanks everyone!
 
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