The Pro-Life Conspiracy

[ADigitalArtist]

IOW, the one who
owns the body has ultimate say over what is removed from it.

Yes, that is my position.

But be fully aware that being an issue for both should not lead
to inferring that each has equal control.

Or any control. At all.

If you'd say it's not a man's issue because we don't get pregnant,
then would you say the same for women who can't give birth?

Yes, in that it's only an issue for women who are making the choice of abortion. The only people who can have abortion are women. Hence, women's issue.

But I think you're misreading me. By saying it's a 'women's issue' you seem to be thinking I mean it's only something women can discuss. That is, of course, not what I mean. Just like I wouldn't mean it if I said something was a 'American issue' or 'Christian issue' or 'Men's issue.' It's an issue that impacts women, and affects women's health and women's legal statuses.

My point is more 'whataboutmen' has no place in the discussion of legal abortion.

 

[Mister Emu]

I know some of us will dismiss it... I'm not all that interested in them.

Listen and believe? Is there no legitimate room for questioning the caustic derogation found in unverified anecdote?

But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?

I doubt many, if any, pro-life people would be surprised or even hold a position other than that politician support for the movement is largely cynical vote mongering. And outside the evangelical sphere at least, most of the big names are viewed as extremely flawed men, if not outright frauds, who abused the faith of good people.

edit: I really need to stop hopping around my replies, writing them piecemeal.
Most pro-life people I know view it as flawed men and their flawed methods being used to hopefully come closer to God's will one day, and that any flaws in the nature of the tool don't necessarily reflect on the quality of goal.

If men were capable of pregnancy and childbirth, I would also say it was a men's issue. But it's not.

It's an issue that impacts women

Is it your position that an abortion can never have an impact on the father's health?

I disagree that the discussion of abortion, specificslly, has anything to do, or should have anything to do, with the input of men beyond what women ask for.

I for one am glad that America is democratic republic where the voice and input of every voting citizen, male or female, is equal under the law. That there is no such thing, legally, as a women's issue or a men's issue that uses a sexist determination to place a value on input.

 

[Revoltingest]

My point is more 'whataboutmen' has no place in the discussion of legal abortion.

If you try to remove from us an issue which concerns us,
It isn't whataboutanything to call you on such malarky.

Yeah, I said it....the "m" word.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

If you try to remove from us an issue which concerns us,
It isn't whataboutanything to call you on such malarky.

Yeah, I said it....the "m" word.

I've removed you no more than you've removed yourself.

"the one who
owns the body has ultimate say over what is removed from it."

What else is it you think I'm doing?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I for one am glad that America is democratic republic where the voice and input of every voting citizen, male or female, is equal under the law. That there is no such thing, legally, as a women's issue or a men's issue that uses a sexist determination to place a value on input.

And I for one am glad that the myth of the one-to-one representational governance which, in actuality, was and is still more powerfully influenced by conservative old white men is being recognized for what it is and steps are being taken to change that.

But I wasn't talking about legal terminology. But social, academic and health ones.

Is it your position that an abortion can never have an impact on the father's health?

Comparably? No, absolutely not.
We call prostate cancer a men's issue even if women in the lives of those diagnosed can also be adversely affected.

 

[Revoltingest]

What else is it you think I'm doing?

Agreeing to agree...but with difficulty.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I went to through a pro-life phase where I thought the millions and millions of babies slain legally by abortion was the greatest abomination against God...then I saw repeated examples of lives that are chronic agony, and people who are a thorn in everyone's side, and realized abortion is the best thing for countless people... seriously, there are so many countless millions of miserable, tortured souls, or sick people who harm others, it is obvious that their mother would have done a great deed to have them put out of their misery in the womb... I feel like a bad Catholic for saying that, but it just seems to be common sense at work.

So if someone is a thorn in the side of others kill them? Its all to easy to pass the death sentence on an unborn, ad to do so for patently ghoulish reasons. I would hazard a bet that there are people in the world that would not care one way or another to sentence you or others to death, personally I don't see much difference between that and say, late term abortion. Your way of thinking is way too close to the way of thinking of those that lost WW2. Now they are a group of people that I didn't shed a tear when I learned in history 101 of what their fate was. Yes as a Christian I feel bad that I do not have one germ of sympathy for those black souls that designed and run the death camps.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Btw, I oppose abortion for the same reasons I oppose the death sentence. Probabilities. Until there is concrete empirical proof that an unborn has no self awareness or other human nuances abortion should be illegal.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

PARTIAL QUOTE;

And I for one am glad that the myth of the one-to-one representational governance which, in actuality, was and is still more powerfully influenced by conservative old white men is being recognized for what it is and steps are being taken to change that.

DA, despite if I agree or disagree with your conclusion(s) that was a very racist statement. Its also a very good example of a logical fallacy. Also I was not aware there was an axiom that the USA has an one on one representational governance. Indeed unless I misunderstand you, in our republic the opposite is true. The USA is an representative democracy where ELECTED old white men, represent a group of people. Btw the old conservative or otherwise, white men were elected by old, young, middle aged, white, black, yellow, red, etc men and women. Don't like it? Well then, get out and vote for old Communist black men if you don't like old conservative white men etc

 

[ADigitalArtist]

PARTIAL QUOTE;

DA, despite if I agree or disagree with your conclusion(s) that was a very racist statement. Its also a very good example of a logical fallacy. Also I was not aware there was an axiom that the USA has an one on one representational governance. Indeed unless I misunderstand you, in our republic the opposite is true. The USA is an representative democracy where ELECTED old white men, represent a group of people. Btw the old conservative or otherwise, white men were elected by old, young, middle aged, white, black, yellow, red, etc men and women. Don't like it? Well then, get out and vote for old Communist black men if you don't like old conservative white men etc

No it isnt. There is. No they weren't. Or, I'll stay and change it for the better. But I digress. That's a tangent for another time.

 

[Revoltingest]

One of the most interesting arguments for abortion rights I ever heard was from a co-worker
(a fellow engineer) back in the 70s. He was a devout Christian who opposed abortion.
But he also had philosophical leanings gleaned from reading Ayn Rand. From her he
adopted the idea that no person should be forced to serve for the benefit of another.
So the mother should not be forced to serve the fetus, thus the decision to bear the
child or abort the fetus was hers & hers alone.

What's most interesting was his thoughtful consideration of 2 conflicting world views.
Usually, one side just demonizes the other's morality, eh. But in this case, the much
despised (on RF) Rand fostered useful diversity of thought.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Btw, I oppose abortion for the same reasons I oppose the death sentence. Probabilities. Until there is concrete empirical proof that an unborn has no self awareness or other human nuances abortion should be illegal.

I wonder why a moral issue should be a political issue _______
In Scripture what I find is a High Crime in God's eyes is abortion just for the 'sole purpose' of getting rid of an unwanted child, otherwise, it is a moral issue between mother and doctor.