You are dodging what I'm saying. I'm saying, say you are correct, why should we twist Quran? Why not abandon it?
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The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.
- Thread starter shunyadragon
- Start date
I am not dodging your argument. As I said previously you are rejecting the objective evidence of science based on a narrow interpretation of ancient tribal text without provenance or science. I mentioned previously that the same problem exists for fundamentalist Christianity.
Labelling it a narrow interpretation, doesn't make the interpretation false. The problem is we have different standards of how to approach God's words. You can twist day of judgment to mean something entirely different. So you can be insincere to the Quran. So Bahai Faith allows any twisting left right and center of God's words, so it's easy for you to twist the creation of Adam (a) and say he evolved from apes. But I can't.
I can't do this twisting of words and pretend for them to mean something they don't.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Im Christian so i will answer according to my own world view.
The problem with this statement of yours I quoted above is that it appears your only interest is in following the majority vote and I am satisfied that majority vote is not theologically literate.
Christian scientists who are also creationists have a biblical source of authority...that why they are YEC Christians!
I accept a literal reading of scripture because those who wrote it were given the task of explaining God to us...they have already done the interpreting by writing down what God intended we should know about Him...this very obviously includes our origins (according to the Christian view). It is theologically untennable to be Christian and hold to a view of our origins that is inconsistent with bible themes and statements. It is only by twisting scriptural revelation that one can follow such falsehoods...its delusional Christianity I think.
There are a few pages of responses here, I recall in a post TEism being mentioned...that compromise is the very thing that confuses individuals through its inconsistent and contradictory theology. I have a habit of throwing the same theological question at TEists and they are yet to give me a straight biblically consistent and biblically supported answer...
If Genesis 1, is an allegory, and the warning of death by God should Adam and Eve eat of the tree in the middle of the garden, was only spiritual...
How is it that Christ, our creator God, should humble Himself taking on the human form of a man, live a physical life, be tortured physically, suffer literal physical death on the cross as aronement for the wages of sin for all humanity, be raised physically again, and ascend physically into heaven...how is any of this a filfillment of a spiritual only penalty for death? Why did our salvation from a claimed "allegorically driven spiritual only threat of death in Genesis" come at the cost of Christ's physical interaction with His creation and death on the cross? Wouldnt you agree this is entirely consistent with the correct and theologically consistent reading of Genesis where a creator God literally came down close to His creation and "breathed the breath of life into his nostrils"?
There are also an awful lot of physical attributes to the narrative of how salvation works...which btw is entirely consistent I think with the Old Testament sanctuary model!
To add to the above, it seems to me that the whole theme of the plan of salvation is consistent with a physical interpretation of the creation of man as evidenced by the Seventh Day Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 part of which states "in six days the Lord created the heavens and the earth but on the seventh day He rested...".
Let's also not forget, Moses was likely a highly educated man among Egyptian royalty...certainly more than adequately capable of diligently recording (either directly or indirectly) Gods revelations concerning the origins of the earth and its history up to that time. It is pretty stupid to forget who Moses was and how educated He would have been.
I follow a written interpretation as I read it because that's how it reads. Like others here who disagree with the evolutionary model, we do not care about the opposing view simply because:
1 its not theologically consistent
2. we accept that the world has been corrupted physically by sin
I am convinced that most TEists do not believe satan can physically interract with this world or anything on it. That's a strange position given the start of the book of Job (which was NOT written by Moses), tells us satan caused a wind storm to destroy a house killing all of Jobs children. Then we have Christ allowing demons to enter a herd of pigs who all ran down into the sea drowning themselves (Mark ch 5)
I follow a philosophical world view. My source of authority for tyat world view is God given scripture not interpretations of corruptible men who fundamentally believe there is no God when revealing scientific data to us. Even that evidence can be corrupted and I believe this was the case when it was laid down thousands of years ago. Having said that, we are told in the illustration of Elijah running to a cave and hiding from Jezebel that Elihah did not find God in the great earthquake, or howling wind, or flash of lightning..Elijah heard a still small voice and immediately recognised it as God. It is those still small voice evidences that God has left us in the natural world, against all the weight of violent storms, lightning and earthquakes, that tell us the truth about origins. Christian YEC scientists are now finding those still small voice evidences regularly and tyat is happening now because they are now diligently following in Elijahs footsteps...listening for that still small voice...they are looking for the little evidences God has left instead of being overwhelmed by secular scientific interpretations that are not God driven but are a result of demons enterring a herd of pigs who then drowned themselves in the sea.
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This statement is circular without science as is with the rest of the post.
Simply no. I follow the objective verifiable evidence as a sound reliable basis. The consensus of science just means they do too, To do otherwise would lead to contradictions with the overwhelming evidence.
This post reflects the upfront policy of the Discovery Institute and the ICR that no scientific evidence will be accepted that does not agree with their interpretation of the Bible.
This confirms your view of relying on ancient tribal scripture without provenance or science.
They believe as they do, because of the overwhelming contradiction of a literal interpretation of scripture with the reality of science and history of a physical existence billions of years old. The dominant view among Jews is also not to interpret the Pentateuch as literal.
The literal interpretation of scripture extremely inconsistent, especially the Pentateuch compiled after 600 BCE. I gave the details as to the contradictions with Noah's flood and no response.
This is your interpretation of ancient tribal scripture without provenance or science.
The Jews emphatically disagree with your interpretation of their book, not yours.
Again . . . as above.
There is no evidence Moses ever existed outside the scripture. If Moses was educated he would have left something in writing. There is absolutely nothing in writing of the Pentateuch before it was compiled after 600 BCE. The Hebrew writing did not exist until after 500 BCE. The only thing before this is scrapes of Proto-Canaanite/Phoenician writing possibly in reference to trade and legal matters.
Turkeys of a feather
Flock together.
This does not reflect what TEists believe. Insulting generalizations reflect the underlying problems with your argument.
No, by definition it is a fundamentalist Christian Theological world view.
Reflecting an ancient mythology and not in touch with the reality of our physical existence without science.
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AdamjEdgar
Active Member
No it represents my theoligical view.
To be honest, you are an indivudal who demonstrates little interest in why the philosophical is more Important than the science.
You appear to have this idea that the answers in disagreement with your own are not well considered..I reject such a notion because I know exactly what is of value to me..and it certainly isn't whether or not secular naturalism and it's interpretations are aligned with Christian ones. The bible tells us that generally people fall away because of unbelief...this has nothing to do with claims of bad science.
Look at the end of the day, you have a binary choice...choose one or the other...Christianity or secular interpretations of the world around us. You can construct any narrative you like...im going with the most consistent evidence I have available...evidence that aligns with the inerrant biblical historical narrative that is well supported by a wealth of physical evidence...evidence that I think proves indivudals such as Moses really existed and that what he wrote is harmonious with other well supported biblical themes and doctrines and this is the point. My theology is sound because of its consistency, and when I find scientific evidence that also supports that, then I know I'm on the right path.
McBell
Unbound
You have not convinced me it is.
In fact, thus far, you are well on your way to demonstrating it isn't.
Yes.
you have demonstrated that you value your opinion over all else.
Since philosophy helps you do just that, of course you believe philosophy is superior.
No it does not, but the overwhelming scientific and historical evidence demonstrates that it is false. You do state that you interpretation is the only possible and if not the Quran is false.
I do not twist anything, just the facts concerning the nature of our physical existence. Yes, you are in contradiction with the consistent predictable scientific evidence concerning our physical existence. I do not believe in contradictions. Your interpretation proposes numerous
Claiming to be science.
Not honest saying things about me you do not know. Actually no , I am big on philosophy and theology. I believe in God, but I believe science as science, philosophy as philosophy and theology as theology.
This needs explanation, because it means nothing, and it is incoherent when referring to me.
First, you need to clarify what you mean by "secular naturalism"
You are not addressing the problems with the conflicts and contradictions the ancient texts present with simple basic contemporary history and science.
How can Noah's flood be supported by contemporary science and history when there is absolutely no evidence of such an event? In fact it is physically impossible,
How can a Biblical Creation story thousands of years old be reconciled with scientific evidence of an earth and universe billions years old?
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justaguy313
Active Member
What about the scientific miracles of the Quran? Are you not aware of them, or you just neglect them?
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Philosophy is more important to me because without it, one has no interest in asking the questions in the first place.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
And yet your theology, based on posts of yours I have read on these forums is less than adequite...in my view typical of those who place science in front of and above the inerrancy of scripture.
The most used argument in support of evolution from TEism is that bible writers either were illiterate idiots incapable of explaining Gods revelation or, it was written for dumbasses who were also illiterate and therefore the origins must be presented to them in what i will paraphrase as "baby language".
Both of the above are also driven by claims within TEism that what the bible calls an all powerful, allknowing, omnipotent God was learning when he made the universe and created mankind.
None of the above claims by TEism are biblical. Individuals who believe the above are not Christian because they are rejecting intrinsic biblical revelation about the nature of God. One cannot possibly claim God is "learning" or that He is incapable of revealing origins to us accurately because His orators, or the ancient audience (whichever), were too stupid to interprete divine revelation.
As I've said before, Moses was very likely educated by Egypt's best educators, he was royalty. To make any claim that Moses was incapable of intelligently and literately recording Gods revelation is also theological and historical nonesense which unlike scientific theory, are actually observable...we can physically gather these evidences and interract with them as the ancients who wrote them did thousands of years ago. Unlike you, I reject that biblical history isn't fact amd a great example of its factual importance was that of the Hititte empire. Secularists scoffed at biblical claims about this people...until archaeologists discovered the bible was right!
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I do not ignore such claims, but I do question the specifics of this claim. First I do not believe a specific star Sirius was described in the Quran. I believe it it is a stretch in interpretation. I will follow up with details and reference. You have not respond to the following questions.
How can Noah's flood be supported by contemporary science and history when there is absolutely no evidence of such an event? In fact it is physically impossible,
How can a Biblical Creation story thousands of years old (actually according to a literal Genesis and Quran Created in less than a week.) be reconciled with scientific evidence of an earth and universe billions years old?
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I have not yet described my Theology. In this post you are dishonestly projecting false claims as to what other people believe in a hostile and aggressive manner. It is considered inadequate by those who reject science based on an ancient tribal agenda.
Science is not above anything. There are many diverse conflicting accounts of Creation and the history of our physical existence. Science simply must remain neutral to the claims of religions and base scientific knowledge on the objective verifiable evidence.
Actually none of the above is true of those who reject the inerrancy of scripture in both Islam and Christianity. By far most that propose TE is that the Bible was compiled and edited based on the culture and times of what they believed.
An example of the limited knowledge of those that compiled the Bible is the existence of polar ice and Ice Ages. They had no knowledge of this and did not record it in their view of Creation.
Not true. Those who believe in TE believe the knowledge of humanity evolves over time through Revelation. Actually in virtually all religions of the world the writing reflect the knowledge of the people at the time.
They are not claim God is learning. You are continuing dishonestly and aggressively falsely projecting on other people what you demand what they believe.
First archaeology has not discovered that the Bible is right. In fact the reverse is true.
Yo have not responded to the problems with the Pentateuch. If Moses was so educated why did he not leave any written records at the time. In fact the Pentateuch was compiled after ~600 BCE. The Hebrew language did not even exist at that time. The authors of the Pentateuch recorded what they believed at the time without any prior written text.
Please respond to the following:
How can Noah's flood be supported by contemporary science and history when there is absolutely no evidence of such an event? In fact it is physically impossible,
How can a Biblical Creation story thousands of years old in the Creation stories of the Bible and the Quran be reconciled with scientific evidence of an earth and universe billions years old?
There is objective verifiable evidence of humans existing more than 250,000 years ago and billions of years of evolving live in earth's history. Your intentional ignorance of science cannot change the evidence.
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Why don't you believe in the contradictions? Why force the Quran to evolution view? If it's because 100% you are certain of evolution, then you should just abandon the Quran.
Excellent advice. Look how many humans get along well without it.
I like a world without contradictions based on the objective verifiable evidence of science. There are too many diverse and conflicting religions with ancient tribal Creation stories to deal with. God did not Create contradictions in the nature of our physical existence. Why force the rejection of evolution and an earth and universe billions of years old as false based on a narrow literal(?) interpretation of the Quran, which I believe is not literal, because you qualify the text with non-;iteral interpretations. Based on a literal interpretation Genesis and the Quran God Created our physical existence in less than a week, and sun and moon are orbiting the earth.
In Islam the sun centered solar system was not accepted based on astronomical observations until the 12th and 13th centuries. It that time it was still a sun centered universe.
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As long as believers cling to ancient tribal world views unresolvable contradictions will exist for them.
As far as I am concerned there are no contradictions in science based on objective verifiable evidence. The earth orbits the sun and it is not the center of the universe.
In Islam the sun centered solar system was not accepted based on astronomical observations until the 12th and 13th centuries. At that time it was still a sun centered universe.
The contradiction may exist from textual perspective. That is, Adam (a) being created from clay. Why should we assume the author of Quran meant otherwise?
I'm not asking why you believe in evolution, I'm asking why do you believe in the Quran despite your belief in evolution. Saying it's a narrow interpretation can do with any meaning in the Quran that is true and say it's not so.
I do not believe in your interpretation of the Quran. It reflects an ancient world view.
I believe in the Quran, Torah and the Bible as reflected in the culture and the time it was written. It is no longer relevant to the contemporary world. In the evolving Progressive Revelation of the human spiritual nature of humanity.