The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.

[Link]

I do not believe in your interpretation of the Quran. It reflects an ancient world view.

I believe in the Quran, Torah and the Bible as reflected in the culture and the time it was written. It is no longer relevant to the contemporary world. In the evolving Progressive Revelation of the human spiritual nature of humanity.

I know. I'm asking why.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What about the scientific miracles of the Quran? Are you not aware of them, or you just neglect them?

The video undermines itself. "Two bow lengths" is plainly talking about hunting weapons, not double helixes. They lie that this is about helixes, and they wait until minute 4 to even say what they are talking about! It would only take 30 seconds to make their case. Place two bows end to end, and that is two bow lengths. Nobody who has ever used bows would find that confusing. They also admit at minute 2 that Syrius has been a serious focus of astrologers since Egyptian times, that it has been tracked closely. Therefore more was known about it than other stars. Its like Venus, another highly tracked entity. Therefore its periodicity is tracked and its brightness will vary as its sibling crosses its path.

It would be easier to make peace than to control a star. This is really about politics and getting more people under Islam's umbrella, but we now know what early Muslims could not have foreseen. Maybe Islam is very polite society and nice, but its not a peace making society. It doesn't solve the problems that it claims to. Muslims still go to war with each other. It can claim that Syrius is the Lord's star if it wants to, but these cheesy fake proofs cannot fix the real issue. It doesn't do what it promises to. It doesn't bring peace, showing that it cannot. Therefore it is wrong about the star.

 

[1213]

In terms of Noah's flood there is absolutely no evidence of regional or world wide flood deposits of sediments that date to the time the Bible describes. In the region of the Levant there is no evidence of even local catastrophic floods. Evidence of Local Catastrophic floods around the world in geologic history have known causes, such as river floods, Tsunamis, and Ice Age floods. None match the age of the Biblical account.

So, your evidence is that you have not seen evidence?

But what if more than the water in the "heavens" were considered? If all the world's glaciers and ice sheets were to melt, then sea levels would rise by more than 195 feet (60 meters), according to NASA, which would add a bit more water. Moreover, a 2016 study published in the journal Nature Geoscience estimated that there's 5.4 million cubic miles (22.6 million cubic kilometers) of groundwater stored in the upper 1.2 miles (2 km) of Earth's crust, which is enough to cover the land to a depth of 590 feet (180 m). That's a lot of water, but there are cities thousands of feet above sea level, and Mount Everest, the highest mountain on Earth, is more than 29,000 feet (8,849 m) above sea level. On top of that, geologists don't see evidence for a global flood in the rock record.

In Biblical point of view, the world was not like it is today. To understand the flood event correctly, you should know:
1) Before the flood there was only one continent that was formed above large water mass.
2) The flood started when the original single continent was broken. From the cracks of the continent water erupted like in geysers and generated lot of water vapor, which then caused the heavy rain.
3) Eventually the cracks in the continent widened, water flooded and the parts of the continent begun to sink.
4) The water carried all kind of stuff, forming many sedimentary formations.
5) Sinking parts of the original continent pushed the sediments on the edges and caused orogenic mountains.
6) When the flood had lasted long enough, everything was covered with water.
7) The flood caused cooling of the planet and the ice age. Vast glaciers were formed, which helped the water level to go down.
8) Glaciers were not the only reason for sinking water level. Another reason, and the biggest reason was taht the sunken material was now compressed by vast amount of water, which then caused the ocean floors to go down and mountains to rise, giving the illusion that there should have been more water than we now have. No, there was enough water, but now the ocean floors have gone down, which is why the amount of water could not cause the same effect.

 

[shunyadragon]

So, your evidence is that you have not seen evidence?

We have detailed Geologic evidence we can see covering the whole history of the earth. The geologic formations of recent history are detailed enough to document that no such flood ever took place and it is physically impossible for such a flood.

In Biblical point of view, the world was not like it is today. To understand the flood event correctly, you should know:

The problem here up front is the world has not changed geographically much since the melting of the last Ice Age and sea levels rose from the melting of the ice 11,500 years ago. The basic geography of the continents and mountain ranges has stayed the same for even longer.

1) Before the flood there was only one continent that was formed above large water mass.

Not true, the same basic continents and mountain ranges have not changed in hundreds of thousands of years. Continental drift has shifted the continents an mountain ranges have changed some, but if you were living 100,000 years ago you would not see any significant change in the continents, mountains and oceans except for the Ice Age in the Arctic region.

2) The flood started when the original single continent was broken. From the cracks of the continent water erupted like in geysers and generated lot of water vapor, which then caused the heavy rain.

False as described above.

3) Eventually the cracks in the continent widened, water flooded and the parts of the continent begun to sink.
4) The water carried all kind of stuff, forming many sedimentary formations.
5) Sinking parts of the original continent pushed the sediments on the edges and caused orogenic mountains.
6) When the flood had lasted long enough, everything was covered with water.
7) The flood caused cooling of the planet and the ice age. Vast glaciers were formed, which helped the water level to go down.
8) Glaciers were not the only reason for sinking water level. Another reason, and the biggest reason was taht the sunken material was now compressed by vast amount of water, which then caused the ocean floors to go down and mountains to rise, giving the illusion that there should have been more water than we now have. No, there was enough water, but now the ocean floors have gone down, which is why the amount of water could not cause the same effect.

There is absolutely no evidence for this mythological view of our geologic history. It actually a rather bizarre fantasy synario.

We have many locations around the world of annual soil layers showing consistent history uninterrupted for thousands of yearw. In Japan there is a lake with over 100,000 years of annual seasonal soil deposition. No world or even regional flood is possible. The Levant has never experienced a local catastrophic flood in recent geologic history.

 

[shunyadragon]

I know. I'm asking why.

I answered why. Again . . .

I do not believe in your interpretation of the Quran. It reflects an ancient world view.

I believe in the Quran, Torah and the Bible as reflected in the culture and the time it was written. It is no longer relevant to the contemporary world. In the evolving Progressive Revelation of the human spiritual nature of humanity.

 

[1213]

We have detailed Geologic evidence we can see covering the whole history of the earth. The ologice formation of recent history are detailed enough to document that no such flood ever took place and it is impossible for such a flood.

We have geological evidence that some interpret as you do. The interpretation can be wrong.

The problem here up front is the world has not changed geographically much since the melting of the last Ice Age and sea levels rose from the melting of the ice 11,500 years ago. The basic geography of the continents and mountain ranges has stayed the same for even longer.

If you believe so. I don't believe that.

Not true, the same basic continents and mountain ranges have not changed in hundreds of thousands of years. Continental drift has shifted the continents an mountain ranges have shange some.

I don't believe that.

There is absolutely no evidence for this mythological view of our geologic history.

Modern continents, mid-Atlantic ridge, orogenic mountains are for example evidence for it.

We have many locations around the world of annual soil layers showing consistent history uninterrupted for thousands of yearw. In Japan there is a lake with over 100,000 years of annual seasonal soil deposition.

Even if it is true that there is 100,000 layers, it can be wrongly interpreted. The layers are not necessary the same as years, only different events or phases. It could be that some year there formed many layers that look like many years.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We have geological evidence that some interpret as you do. The interpretation can be wrong.

It could be, but that is highly doubtful. And there is no other scientific explanation. I will need to remind you that one at least has to have scientific hypotheses to have a scientific explanation.

If you believe so. I don't believe that.

Why not? What evidence do you have to the contrary? Do you not realize that we have evidence that supports those claims?

I don't believe that.

Again, evidence. We have it . You do not. The last time I checked you were too afraid to even learn what is and what is not evidence.

Modern continents, mid-Atlantic ridge, orogenic mountains are for example evidence for it.

And I did not even read this and you confirmed that you do not understand the concept of evidence.

Okay, you can show that I am wrong. What is your testable hypothesis that your evidence came from? What possible test could refute it?

Even if it is true that there is 100,000 layers, it can be wrongly interpreted. The layers are not necessary the same as years, only different events or phases. It could be that some year there formed many layers that look like many years.

It could be, but then there are often independent sources that confirm those ages.

By the way, you would have to show how many layers could be formed in a year and how that could have kept up for year after year.. If you can't you have nothing.

 

[shunyadragon]

We have geological evidence that some interpret as you do. The interpretation can be wrong.

If you believe so. I don't believe that.

I don't believe that.

Science by definition is not based on "beliefs.", As mentioned you have difficulty with the English language and understanding the definition of "evidence."

Modern continents, mid-Atlantic ridge, orogenic mountains are for example evidence for it.

These are examples of evidence of continental drift over millions of years at very slow rate. This bizarre mythical synario neglects some very basic principles of the energy relationships of physics. The amount of energy required in the short period of time for what you describe would roast the earth to cinder. Gradual continental drift, mountain building and volcanics can only be explained by over millions of years time generated by the interior heat of the earth.

We have overwhelming evidence of human habitation of places on the earth for over 200,000 years.

Jericho was a Neolithic village 9,000 BCE and occupied since with no evidence of a flood. Jericho | Facts & History.

Damascus has been continuously occupied for 0ver 12,000 years.

Even if it is true that there is 100,000 layers, it can be wrongly interpreted. The layers are not necessary the same as years, only different events or phases. It could be that some year there formed many layers that look like many years.

No, each seasonal layer for 100.000 years has a distinct seasonal pollen layer deposited each spring just as it happens every year now.

A world or regional flood would leave vaste flood deposited debri. No such debri deposits exist beyond local river floods, glacial flood deposits and Tsunamis.

 

[Link]

I answered why. Again . . .

I do not believe in your interpretation of the Quran. It reflects an ancient world view.

I believe in the Quran, Torah and the Bible as reflected in the culture and the time it was written. It is no longer relevant to the contemporary world. In the evolving Progressive Revelation of the human spiritual nature of humanity.

It no longer being relevant and it being an ancient world view, both, do not do away with what the interpretation is supposed to be. I'm asking why you believe in the Quran. Why do you believe that the Quran does not contradict science?

 

[shunyadragon]

It no longer being relevant and it being an ancient world view, both, do not do away with what the interpretation is supposed to be. I'm asking why you believe in the Quran. Why do you believe that the Quran does not contradict science?

The Quran does conflict with science, because it reflects an ancient cultural worldview. You assert what the interpretation is "supposed to be" to justify your own agenda. I do not accept that for the same reason I do not accept the assertion of believers in the Torah and the Bible try to make things fit the contemporary world.

Yes, I "do a way" with the diverse conflicting interpretations believers assert to try and make the Torah, Bible and the Quran fit today.

 

[Link]

You are continuing to avoid the question.

 

[shunyadragon]

You are continuing to avoid the question.

I have responded to the question repeatedly. You are avoiding reality based on an ancient tribal agenda that not only rejects science, but is involved with tribal separation, violence and wars in contemporary history.

The Quran does conflict with science, because it reflects an ancient cultural worldview. You assert what the interpretation is "supposed to be" to justify your own agenda. I do not accept that for the same reason I do not accept the assertion of believers in the Torah and the Bible try to make things fit the contemporary world.

Yes, I "do a way" with the diverse conflicting interpretations believers assert to try and make the Torah, Bible and the Quran fit today.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We share DNA also with pigs, bananas, chickens, cats, mice and slugs, but does this mean that we developed from them?
This is a strawman argument.

How Much DNA Do Humans Share With Other Animals and Plants?

beenhereKey Takeaways: Nearly 99.9% of human DNA is identical to that of other humans. Cats and humans share about 90% of their genetic makeup. Around 85% of human DNA is shared with mice. Humans and pigs share a substantial portion of DNA, about 98%. Over half of human DNA, or…

thednatests.com

It means we're related, to varying degrees. As I said.
Not a strawman argument. Just the facts.

 

[F1fan]

We have geological evidence that some interpret as you do. The interpretation can be wrong.

Experts are not supporting literalist creationists because they evidence does not support Bible literalism. It is creationists, like you, whose interpretation of the Bible is incorrect based on evidence. There are websites yhat cater to believers like you, and you buy into the deception.

Even if it is true that there is 100,000 layers, it can be wrongly interpreted. The layers are not necessary the same as years, only different events or phases. It could be that some year there formed many layers that look like many years.

Experts aren't getting it wrong, creationists are.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It no longer being relevant and it being an ancient world view, both, do not do away with what the interpretation is supposed to be. I'm asking why you believe in the Quran. Why do you believe that the Quran does not contradict science?

Anytime proven science and Quran are in conflict, it is not that the Quran is wrong, it is that, the verse is Mutishabihat.
This is how I believe in divinity of the Quran, and at the same time, I am not resistant to accepting science.

 

[Link]

Anytime proven science and Quran are in conflict, it is not that the Quran is wrong, it is that, the verse is Mutishabihat.
This is how I believe in divinity of the Quran, and at the same time, I am not resistant to accepting science.

How can a book be wrong by your standards then?

 

[Link]

To clarify, your viewpoint is that no matter how wrong the Quran says something, it will be mutashibahat and mean something else. This way, any book no matter how wrong in what it claims, can be asserted to be divine.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

In 2017, Turkey announced plans to end the teaching of evolution in Turkish schools, with chairman of the Board of Education, Alpaslan Durmuş, claiming it was too complicated and "controversial" a topic for students.

Yet another reason for antitheism, by which I mean the idea that the Abrahamic religions are a net harm to humanity and that the world would be better off if they had less influence in it.

The problem is that you can't prove creation is not true.

That's not a problem. Empiricists reject the insufficiently evidenced claims of the creationists. There is no debate on this matter outside of Sunday schools and creationist web sites, and such sources have zero standing in the discussion except with other creationists and those willing to heed such sources.

or that evolution is true

Also not a problem. There is no need to either "prove" evolution or disprove creationism. Nor that gods do not exist.

it is the Christian Scientists who are the minority that believe in God and intelligent design that have won of the majority of Nobel Prizes over time.

Nobody has won a Nobel for creationism.

I am a published scientist that believes in science

Aren't you a creationist?

We share DNA also with pigs, bananas, chickens, cats, mice and slugs, but does this mean that we developed from them?
This is a strawman argument.

But it's your strawman argument. There is no claim that man developed from any of those.

What about the scientific miracles of the Quran? Are you not aware of them, or you just neglect them?

Miracles are not known to occur. Claims of miracles require extraordinary supporting evidence to be believed, and none have that.

Moses was very likely educated by Egypt's best educators, he was royalty. To make any claim that Moses was incapable of intelligently and literately recording Gods revelation is also theological and historical nonesense

To make any claim that Moses existed is untenable. There is no empirical support for the historicity of Adam, Noah, Abraham, or Moses. There's little for Jesus.

As for 'theological nonsense,' theology itself is just speculating about the unfalsifiable - the kinds of things others call, "not even wrong."

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How can a book be wrong by your standards then?

If a book has false statements that contradict science and logic, AND the author of the book meant to express a literal meaning.

But in my view, the Quran has many statements that the Author was not speaking literally.

A hadith attributed to Muhammad is essential in understanding the inward aspects of the Quran, and it is fundamental to Quranic exegesis:[10]

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."
There is a statement made by the Imam, Jafar Sadiq (d. 765 CE):[10]

"The book of God comprises four things: the statement set down, the allusions, the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world, and the exalted spiritual doctrines. The literal statement is for the ordinary believers. The allusions are the concern of the elite. The hidden meanings pertain to the friends of God. The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets."

Esoteric interpretation of the Quran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Link]

If a book has false statements that contradict science and logic, AND the author of the book meant to express a literal meaning.

But in my view, the Quran has many statements that the Author was not speaking literally.

A hadith attributed to Muhammad is essential in understanding the inward aspects of the Quran, and it is fundamental to Quranic exegesis:[10]

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."
There is a statement made by the Imam, Jafar Sadiq (d. 765 CE):[10]

"The book of God comprises four things: the statement set down, the allusions, the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world, and the exalted spiritual doctrines. The literal statement is for the ordinary believers. The allusions are the concern of the elite. The hidden meanings pertain to the friends of God. The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets."

Esoteric interpretation of the Quran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Every book can be asserted to not mean to express a literal meaning though where it's wrong.