The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.

[1213]

Again, evidence. We have it .

That evidence can be explained also by other way, therefore it is not really evidence for what it is generally used.

Okay, you can show that I am wrong. What is your testable hypothesis that your evidence came from? What possible test could refute it?

My claim was: Modern continents, mid-Atlantic ridge, orogenic mountains are evidence for that the flood came when the original single continent was broken and it's pieces sunk.

To test could so happen, one could for example build a model of a single continent that has lot of water below it. That single continent would have "dust" on its surface, as the Bible tells and also lot of organic material. And the flood would begin with cracks forming in about the middle of the continent (like Mid-Atlantic Ridge). From those cracks water and water vapour would escape like from geyser. The escaping water would flood the dust towards the edges of the continent, causing sediment formations. The more water woudl escape belof the continent, the more the pieces of the continent would go down. While the pieces would go down, the sediments flushed to edges of the continent, would be compressed, which would then cause orogenic mountains.

That is one way to test, could the theory be true and explain such formations. If not, then it is possible that the theory is not true, or that the test was not done properly.

By the way, you would have to show how many layers could be formed in a year and how that could have kept up for year after year.. If you can't you have nothing.

One thing that could explain it is the ice age and vast glaciers on top of very large areas. If there really was such glaciers, they could provide melting water many times in year, that could then carry stuff like nowadays different seasons do.

 

[Monty]

The flood was global an not the same as regional small flood. Therefore it is irrational to expect similar signs than from a small flood.

The bible, however, says that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family and their animals was only 15 cubits high and drained away like every other similar flood before and since, and does not say that the flood was global but only that the flood waters covered the land to the horizon ( ie "under the whole heavens").

 

[Monty]

My claim was: Modern continents, mid-Atlantic ridge, orogenic mountains are evidence for that the flood came when the original single continent was broken and it's pieces sunk.

Pangaea, however, broke up about 200 million years ago, and Gondwana broke up over 50 million years ago. Which is why there are six distinct biogeographical regions with their own unique ranges of flora and fauna resulting from isolated evolution in each biogeographical region. Which is why kangaroos and echidnas are only native to the Australian region and armadillos are only native to the Neotropical region

 

[shunyadragon]

I am getting old. As a result I am shopping for a religion that denies gravity.

Founded by the inventor of sky hooks and infinite ladders.

 

[Link]

There is an apparent meaning and there are inner meanings.

As for its apparent meaning, it is talking about the creation of human beings. Which of course contradicts with science. But, I don't have a Problem With God speaking incorrectly, because God and His Prophets spoke to the level of understanding of people of the time, as recorded in Al-Kafi:

A group of our people has narrted from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Faddal from certain persons of our people from abu ‘Abdallah who has said the following:

"The holy Prophet never spoke to people from the height and with the full power of his intelligence. The holy Prophet (s.a.) has said, "We the community of the Prophets are commanded to speak to people up to the level of their intelligence and understanding."

Thus, as the people of the time, had not advanced in science yet, they were not ready to be told.

It is not the mission of Prophets to teach science. Their mission is to create a new human spiritually. Humanity discovers science gradually themselves.

As regards to its hidden and inner meaning. I don't claim i know it. But this is what I suggest:



Allah created you from dust,

by 'you' is meant the Muslims, and by 'creating' is meant spiritually. As Manifestation of Muhammad was a Day of Resurrection, it is said, they were dust, and God Created them from dust. Meaning they were spiritually Dead, and became dust, and God revived them.

then from a drop of [seminal] fluid,

This is an allusion, to the Mahdi. Islam was pregnant with Mahdi, and symbolically, this is expressed as Notfeh. Meaning after Muslims, another Community will be created, which is like Nutfeh of Islam, and that is through Manifestation of the Mahdi.


then He made you mates. No female conceives or delivers except with His knowledge, and no elderly person advances in years, nor is anything diminished of his life, but it is [recorded] in a Book. That is indeed easy for Allah.

These references are meant that, the number of believers increases, as per Allah’s Will.

The verses that follow:

ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنْشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ | Then We created the drop of fluid as a clinging mass. Then We created the clinging mass as a fleshy tissue. Then We created the fleshy tissue as bones. Then We clothed the bones with flesh. Then We produced him as [yet] another creature. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators! | Al-Muminoon : 14

ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ لَمَيِّتُونَ | Then indeed you die after that. | Al-Muminoon : 15

ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تُبْعَثُونَ | Then you will indeed be raised up on the Day of Resurrection. | Al-Muminoon : 16


Personally, I fear God to the extent if I knew 100% evolution was true, I would just deny the Quran, then think God talks like the way you suggest.

But I am 100% sure Quran is correct and evolution is false.

 

[shunyadragon]

I agree that is why a lot of what is called science today, like evolution theory, are pseudoscience.

Yes, Intelligent Design and Creationist science is called pseudoscience because it is based on an ancient tribal text without science. Over 95%++ of all scientists in the fields related to evolution and every major university of the world support the sciences of evolution.

Sorry, I disagree with you.

Why should I believe the number is correct? How do you explain that humans have existed 200,000 years, but only about 6,000 years we have developed things.

Sorry, I don't believe that.

No need to apologize.Your intentional ignorance of science is appalling enough without apologies

All the layers are formed, if there are similar conditions. Similar conditions could be several time in a year, which can cause it to look there are more years than there actually is.

No, based simple science, each layer this year has pollen layer in the spring, and last year and the years before based on simple root observation, This is true for the lake in Japan with at least 100.000 consistent continuous layers formed each year with a pollen layer.

The flood was global an not the same as regional small flood. Therefore it is irrational to expect similar signs than from a small flood.

A sudden flood on a local. regional or world scale will leave flood debri based on simple physics. A world flood would leave cast catastrophic flood debri. The Recent geologic strategraphy of all rock layers of the world do not have any evidence of a world flood.

 

[shunyadragon]

Experts can be wrong and have many times been wrong. I trust more to what can actually be seen and tested.

No, the sciences are based on objective verifiable evidence of the history of the world. Yes, the knowledge of science changes and advances in the past 170 years, and Noah's flood has always been wrong based on simple high school physics in recent scientific history.

The geologic history of the earth has been seen and tested continuously for over 170 years.

 

[shunyadragon]

That evidence can be explained also by other way, therefore it is not really evidence for what it is generally used.

My claim was: Modern continents, mid-Atlantic ridge, orogenic mountains are evidence for that the flood came when the original single continent was broken and it's pieces sunk.

To test could so happen, one could for example build a model of a single continent that has lot of water below it. That single continent would have "dust" on its surface, as the Bible tells and also lot of organic material. And the flood would begin with cracks forming in about the middle of the continent (like Mid-Atlantic Ridge). From those cracks water and water vapour would escape like from geyser. The escaping water would flood the dust towards the edges of the continent, causing sediment formations. The more water woudl escape belof the continent, the more the pieces of the continent would go down. While the pieces would go down, the sediments flushed to edges of the continent, would be compressed, which would then cause orogenic mountains.

That is one way to test, could the theory be true and explain such formations. If not, then it is possible that the theory is not true, or that the test was not done properly.

One thing that could explain it is the ice age and vast glaciers on top of very large areas. If there really was such glaciers, they could provide melting water many times in year, that could then carry stuff like nowadays different seasons do.

The nature and extent of Glacial deposits are well known and documented and limited regional to the northern and mountain climates. No, Ice Age and northern climate glaciation only explains Ice Age glacial deposits and nothing more, which include their own cyclic outwash deposits. The lake deposits around the world that I am referring to have nothing to do with Ice Age glaciation and glaciers in the northern climates and mountains, My references to cyclic anual lakes deposits with an annual pollen layer reflect a continuous mesic climate for thousands of years.

The Bible reflects no knowledge of Ice Ages and mountain glaciers which are evidence of an earth billions of years old without a recent geologic world or regional flood.

 

[shunyadragon]

There are also consequences if people are insincere to the interpretation of Quran. The biggest issue with Muslims is they are not sincere to the interpretation of Quran and will twist Quran left right and center for their leaders and authorities in religion.

This is an unfortunate egocentric judgement of others who believe differently among the fractured tribal divisions of Islam. The lack of consistency of the religious beliefs within religions and between religions is a witness to the subjective nature of religious beliefs.

More twisting left right and center of Quran to justify theories of scientist will also have consequence from my point of view. The insincerity is expressed in a hadith qudsi "He doesn't believe in me (God) who interprets my book according to their opinion".

Again, science is indifferent to the many conflicting beliefs and disagreements between religions and their many conflicting interpretations of scripture,

Science remains consistent and predictable with the evolving knowledge of our physical existence without any twisting left right or center of any of the conflicting religious beliefs of the world.

 

[F1fan]

Experts can be wrong and have many times been wrong. I trust more to what can actually be seen and tested.

In the case of experts and science that refutes literalist interpretations of the Bible they aren't wrong. It is you literalists who are wrong, and your deep denial is an ongoing curiosity for the well educated.

 

[shunyadragon]

In the case of experts and science that refutes literalist interpretations of the Bible they aren't wrong. It is you literalists who are wrong, and your deep denial is an ongoing curiosity for the well educated.

I am not particularly curious about the the intentional ignorance of science by literal creationists. I consider it tragic with many related long term consequences for science.

 

[shunyadragon]

The bible, however, says that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family and their animals was only 15 cubits high and drained away like every other similar flood before and since, and does not say that the flood was global but only that the flood waters covered the land to the horizon ( ie "under the whole heavens").

The Bible stated clearly and specifically that it was 15 cubits over the top of the mountains and wiped out all the animals and humans of the earth except those on the Arc.

 

[F1fan]

I am not particularly curious about the the intentional ignorance of science by literal creationists. I consider it tragic with many related long term consequences for science.

I am curious about how these literalists came to accept and believe these bad ideas, and reject knowledge. Are the gullible, or were they indocrinated at a young age? In any event their outlook is damaged and surely causes them liability in the 21st century.

 

[Link]

My belief: One can deceive themselves about believing God and evolution. One cannot truly believe one with the other.

Design is easily seen by believers who reflect properly. For example, consciousness is a sign of design. There needs to many changes from non-consciousness to consciousness, while a small few mutations won't bring that change, and so it's impossible from an evolution stand point.

But people rather worship scientists than God. This is their choice.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The verses that follow:

ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنْشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ | Then We created the drop of fluid as a clinging mass. Then We created the clinging mass as a fleshy tissue. Then We created the fleshy tissue as bones. Then We clothed the bones with flesh. Then We produced him as [yet] another creature. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators! | Al-Muminoon : 14

ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ لَمَيِّتُونَ | Then indeed you die after that. | Al-Muminoon : 15

ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تُبْعَثُونَ | Then you will indeed be raised up on the Day of Resurrection. | Al-Muminoon : 16


Personally, I fear God to the extent if I knew 100% evolution was true, I would just deny the Quran, then think God talks like the way you suggest.

But I am 100% sure Quran is correct and evolution is false.

Verse 14 says, first bone is made, then flesh is added to it. Is this correct scientifically?

I see these verses as similitude of the Ummah. It is about resurrection of people and creating a new Ummah. It happens in every Resurrection Day.

 

[Link]

Verse 14 says, first bone is made, then flesh is added to it. Is this correct scientifically?

I see these verses as similitude of the Ummah. It is about resurrection of people and creating a new Ummah. It happens in every Resurrection Day.

You can look up explanations with science of the verse. But your interpretation I don't believe you believe in it. I believe you are those described in Quran s taking the religion as a play thing.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am curious about how these literalists came to accept and believe these bad ideas, and reject knowledge. Are the gullible, or were they indocrinated at a young age? In any event their outlook is damaged and surely causes them liability in the 21st century.

The nature of fallible humans is the priority of a strong sense tribal belonging and identity which is powerful in the cultural indoctrination from youth and influence of the prevalent culture. If you look at a less biased view of history it is a witness of blind devotion to the tribe that goes beyond just the rejection of science. but includes inhuman violence and wars against those that do not belong to the tribe. Rejecting the prevailing tribal beliefs often has unfortunate consequences of alienation, rejection and violence by the prevailing tribe.

I believe humans have the "Potential Free Will," but blind devotion to the tribe gives up any potential of independent rational and logical decision making ability in terms of anything beyond the will of the tribe.

Note: The possibility of "Potential Free Will" is not the belief in "Libertarian Free Will."

 

[Link]

This is an unfortunate egocentric judgement of others who believe differently among the fractured tribal divisions of Islam. The lack of consistency of the religious beliefs within religions and between religions is a witness to the subjective nature of religious beliefs.

Again, science is indifferent to the many conflicting beliefs and disagreements between religions and their many conflicting interpretations of scripture,

Science remains consistent and predictable with the evolving knowledge of our physical existence without any twisting left right or center of any of the conflicting religious beliefs of the world.

Quran shows God commands humans not to differ with the religion. It was possible and still possible to unite. Humans don't care for the truth and are playful with regards to God's words. Religion is a game and they are ever playful with the reminders.

The Quran is clear regarding the Twelve Imams (a). It's central theme is Welayat of Ahlulbayt (a). Yet people are oblivious. Not due to Quran being unclear, but sinister dark magic that blinds mankind to the clear recitation. Without relying on God and his rope, of course, people will be hard hearted, playful, and become blind like many past nations did in the past.

There is a theme of pointing to signs of design as well in the Quran. For example, have you thought of the moon? Do you know how pinpoint it has to be in rotation to have one side of the moon and for us to see it the way we do for lunar months. More then that, the Sun is a further distance, but to us they appear the same size. All this coincidence? Eclipses happens because of this. How much of a coincidence - calculate it - that sun and moon appear the same size. And the rotation of the moon coincides with the earth that it keeps a dark side of the moon all the time.

People who don't see design don't think.

 

[shunyadragon]

Quran shows God commands humans not to differ with the religion. It was possible and still possible to unite. Humans don't care for the truth and are playful with regards to God's words. Religion is a game and they are ever playful with the reminders.

Yes, religion is a game of conflict and division in history, and you are a part of that game. Which represents the problem of your views on science and those that believe differently. There is no reason to believe that unity is possible under the Quran because Islam has been divided by tribal boundaries from early in its history and often a bloody and violent separation. There is no reasonable hope the other religions will ever agree on the issue of unity.

he Quran is clear regarding the Twelve Imams (a). It's central theme is Welayat of Ahlulbayt (a). Yet people are oblivious. Not due to Quran being unclear, but sinister dark magic that blinds mankind to the clear recitation. Without relying on God and his rope, of course, people will be hard hearted, playful, and become blind like many past nations did in the past.

Paranoid conspiracy theories do not explain the controversy of tribal divisions within Islam and between religions that often result in inhuman violence and wars even within Islam. Other tribes of Islam make the same accusations you make of them.

The Quran is clear and specific concerning old world mythology on Creation and Cosmology. Fro example it is clear and specific that the sun orbits the earth and the earth is the center of the cosmos.

 

[Link]

The Quran is clear and specific concerning old world mythology on Creation and Cosmology. Fro example it is clear and specific that the sun orbits the earth and the earth is the center of the cosmos.

This is a different topic. I saw your topic on it, and I will respond. But to be short, the verse in Surah Yaseen uses more then dual plurality, meaning the earth too is in a orbit (not only the moon and sun). As for the verse in Surah Kahf, I don't think anyone believe the sun literally landed in muddy water. I don't think any human from Adam (a) till now, would believe that. That has a many different interpretation, and sun does also have symbolic meaning sometime for the light of God in the leader/guide/Messenger.