The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.

[shunyadragon]

This is a different topic. I saw your topic on it, and I will respond. But to be short, the verse in Surah Yaseen uses more then dual plurality, meaning the earth too is in a orbit (not only the moon and sun). As for the verse in Surah Kahf, I don't think anyone believe the sun literally landed in muddy water. I don't think any human from Adam (a) till now, would believe that. That has a many different interpretation, and sun does also have symbolic meaning sometime for the light of God in the leader/guide/Messenger.

It is right on topic as to whether the Quran is accurate and clear. You have frequently jerrymandered your interpretation of the Quran to suit your agenda.

For that matter the Quran clearly and specifically describes the sun orbiting th earth which was the only world view of all the cultures at the time. No one at the time believed differently. It was not until the 12th and 13th century that Islamic astronomers determined that the sun was the center of the solar system and the earth revolved around the sun, based not on the astronomical scientific observation NOT on the Quran.

According to the Quran God Created everything in les than a week. Even your stretch of interpretation of the Quran on the meaning of a day you cannot justify the evidence of an earth and universe billions of years old based on the Quran.

You continue to be selective on how you interpret the Quran to suit your agenda, which is terribly inconsistent. It is dishonest to selectively interpret and reinterpret the Quran to selectively accept some of science and reject other science.

Science on the other hand is consistent and predictable concerning the nature of our physical existence and the sciences of evolution.

 

[Link]

Which represents the problem of your views on science and those that believe differently

Paranoid conspiracy theories do not explain the controversy of tribal divisions within Islam and between religions that often result in inhuman violence and wars even within Islam. Other tribes of Islam make the same accusations you make of them.

The Quran is clear and specific concerning old world mythology on Creation and Cosmology. Fro example it is clear and specific that the sun orbits the earth and the earth is the center of the cosmos.

There is two orders in Quran of how creation happened:

أَأَنْتُمْ أَشَدُّ خَلْقًا أَمِ السَّمَاءُ ۚ بَنَاهَا | Is your creation more prodigious or that of the heaven He has built? | An-Naazi'aat : 27
رَفَعَ سَمْكَهَا فَسَوَّاهَا | He raised its vault and fashioned it, | An-Naazi'aat : 28
وَأَغْطَشَ لَيْلَهَا وَأَخْرَجَ ضُحَاهَا | and darkened its night, and brought forth its forenoon. | An-Naazi'aat : 29
وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ دَحَاهَا | Thereafter He spread out the earth, | An-Naazi'aat : 30

One has to be literal, and other metaphoric of something else.

Now "earth" has been used for other things in Quran and hadiths then literal earth or literal land. For example, "he clung to the earth", is an expression of following caprice.

Heaven also has spiritual meaning in Quran, for example, in Surah Hijr it's in context of ascension and spiritual blindness of disbelievers, that they would even think they are intoxicated. Then it emphasizes that the lanterns God made an adornment. All this links to the talk of why not Angels (a) sent as well.

The place where it describes what happened in the 6 days, it then mentions heaven in a spiritual way it did through out. So to be consistent, it would have to be interpreted spiritually.

But the order is inversed. Also hadiths have mentioned days and nights often as metaphors for light expanding or being veiled. For example, "the ten nights" as said to be Al-Hassan (a) to Al-Hassan (a) per a hadith.

In Misbahal Shariah it is said:

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Love of Allah is a fire which does not pass by anything without burning it up; the light of Allah does not come over something without illuminating it.

The skies of Allah do not cause a cloud to appear without it covering whatever is beneath it; the wind of Allah does not blow on something without it moving. Allah's water gives life to everything, and from Allah's earth everything grows. Whoever loves Allah is given every possession and authority.'

So there is a metaphor in Quran and ahadith of earth positive as above as well as some verses it refers to a negative nature (low vile nature). It depends on the context.

 

[justaguy313]

But it's your strawman argument. There is no claim that man developed from any of those.

Miracles are not known to occur. Claims of miracles require extraordinary supporting evidence to be believed, and none have that.

It is not me who claims to know that we developed from different species than our own, because ''the science'' told him so

Miracles and supernatural phenomena occur everyday, but for the blind there won't ever be any evidence enough that they would believe

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You can look up explanations with science of the verse. But your interpretation I don't believe you believe in it. I believe you are those described in Quran s taking the religion as a play thing.

It is about understanding the symbols.

Quran is not a story book for children that tells them how in the belly of Mom, they grew. The reason Quran is a miracle, is, it has hidden layers of meanings. Remember i Quotes Hadith from Muhammad and Sadiq, saying how Quran has hidden meanings, upto Seven?
One needs to ask himself, why there are hidden meanings in the Quran. I believe It is a key to see what Quran is about really.

 

[Link]

It is about understanding the symbols.

Quran is not a story book for children that tells them how in the belly of Mom, they grew. The reason Quran is a miracle, is, it has hidden layers of meanings. Remember i Quotes Hadith from Muhammad and Sadiq, saying how Quran has hidden meanings, upto Seven?
One needs to ask himself, why there are hidden meanings in the Quran. I believe It is a key to see what Quran is about really.

There are eight type of signs of God. Physical creation are among his signs.

The different type of signs reinforce each other.

 

[justaguy313]

Verse 14 says, first bone is made, then flesh is added to it. Is this correct scientifically?

I see these verses as similitude of the Ummah. It is about resurrection of people and creating a new Ummah. It happens in every Resurrection Day.

Did you ever wonder why is there ''We'' and not ''Huwwa'' in many ayats?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, Intelligent Design and Creationist science is called pseudoscience because it is based on an ancient tribal text without science. Over 95%++ of all scientists in the fields related to evolution and every major university of the world support the sciences of evolution.

No need to apologize.Your intentional ignorance of science is appalling enough without apologies


No, based simple science, each layer this year has pollen layer in the spring, and last year and the years before based on simple root observation, This is true for the lake in Japan with at least 100.000 consistent continuous layers formed each year with a pollen layer.

A sudden flood on a local. regional or world scale will leave flood debri based on simple physics. A world flood would leave cast catastrophic flood debri. The Recent geologic strategraphy of all rock layers of the world do not have any evidence of a world flood.

It is also pseudoscience because it does not follow the scientific method. It is not a falsifiable belief. Falsifiability is Kryptonite to creationists. There only defense is to feign ignorance of it. The closest that the came to it was Behe's first attempt at defining Irreducible Complexity in a testable way. That was a big mistake because of his claim of "it does not work if all of the parts are not there" was refuted since for almost all if not all of his cherry picked examples there was life that did not use the full assemblage of parts. For example the bacterial flagellum is not fully developed in all bacteria. They will have only parts of it and those parts have a different usage by the organism. The same can be shown with the blood clotting cascade.

Behe failed so badly that he had to redefine "science" and in the Dover Trial he was forced to admit under oath that using his definition of "science", astrology would have to be called a science.

 

[justaguy313]

It is about understanding the symbols.

Quran is not a story book for children that tells them how in the belly of Mom, they grew. The reason Quran is a miracle, is, it has hidden layers of meanings. Remember i Quotes Hadith from Muhammad and Sadiq, saying how Quran has hidden meanings, upto Seven?
One needs to ask himself, why there are hidden meanings in the Quran. I believe It is a key to see what Quran is about really.

There are zahir(appearant) and batin(esoteric) meanings of Quran. Only Ahlul Bayt, the imams and mahdis know the batin and for that matter they are the only people who can interpret the Quran.

The Holy Prophet (pbuhahf) said:

One who interprets the Qur’an according to personal opinion he makes his place in fire (Hell).

One who interprets the Qur’an according to his view, even though it may be right, yet he has committed a sin.

-Tafseer Jameul Ahkaam of Qurtubi, Vol 1, p. 32 and Majmaul Bayan, Vol 1, p. 9Jameul Bayan Vol. 3, p. 32

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are eight type of signs of God. Physical creation are among his signs.

The different type of signs reinforce each other.

How would that be seen as sign for someone who does not believe in God? The Atheists don't attribute the amazing things in the world to God.
Beside that, the disbelievers do not consider Quran a book of guidance that they may learn lessons from it. They consider it lies. Quran, as it says, is a guidence for those who are God fearing and believe in the unseen.
The reason that, there are verses with hidden meanings, is, to be a guide in recognition of the Mahdi, for those who think deeply in its verses. All the Mutishabihat in Quran, are giving signs about Manifestation of the Mahdi. The Mahdi is the ultimate goal of Quran.

 

[Link]

How would that be seen as sign for someone who does not believe in God? The Atheists don't attribute the amazing things in the world to God.
Beside that, the disbelievers do not consider Quran a book of guidance that they may learn lessons from it. They consider it lies. Quran, as it says, is a guidence for those who are God fearing and believe in the unseen.
The reason that, there are verses with hidden meanings, is, to be a guide in recognition of the Mahdi, for those who think deeply in its verses. All the Mutishabihat in Quran, are giving signs about Manifestation of the Mahdi. The Mahdi is the ultimate goal of Quran.

The Mahdi (a) is one of the main themes, I agree. For example, all the verses about destroyed cities lead to the promise of the universal threat to all cities, and the Mahdi (a) is a Messenger, but not a Nabi. The ultimatum that will come about with the Mahdi (a) is in fact clear in Surah Yonus for example. The term will come. It always does.

However, the outward signs point to the fact God would send Messengers and appoint guides. This for example the theme in Surah Nahl.

But how would an Atheist benefit. He has to go with "if the Quran is revealed by God, what does God want me to reflect over this and that and what is God trying to say to me".

That approach with reflection will lead to the truth.

The design of God and creation physically are among the signs that point to a purpose. A purpose of trial. Nature shows this is a world of trial.

 

[shunyadragon]

There are zahir(appearant) and batin(esoteric) meanings of Quran. Only Ahlul Bayt, the imams and mahdis know the batin and for that matter they are the only people who can interpret the Quran.

This a very selective elitist view of the meaning of scripture.

Do they accept science as the evolving progressive knowledge of the nature of our physical existence?

 

[shunyadragon]

There is two orders in Quran of how creation happened:

أَأَنْتُمْ أَشَدُّ خَلْقًا أَمِ السَّمَاءُ ۚ بَنَاهَا | Is your creation more prodigious or that of the heaven He has built? | An-Naazi'aat : 27
رَفَعَ سَمْكَهَا فَسَوَّاهَا | He raised its vault and fashioned it, | An-Naazi'aat : 28
وَأَغْطَشَ لَيْلَهَا وَأَخْرَجَ ضُحَاهَا | and darkened its night, and brought forth its forenoon. | An-Naazi'aat : 29
وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ دَحَاهَا | Thereafter He spread out the earth, | An-Naazi'aat : 30

One has to be literal, and other metaphoric of something else.

Now "earth" has been used for other things in Quran and hadiths then literal earth or literal land. For example, "he clung to the earth", is an expression of following caprice.

Heaven also has spiritual meaning in Quran, for example, in Surah Hijr it's in context of ascension and spiritual blindness of disbelievers, that they would even think they are intoxicated. Then it emphasizes that the lanterns God made an adornment. All this links to the talk of why not Angels (a) sent as well.

The place where it describes what happened in the 6 days, it then mentions heaven in a spiritual way it did through out. So to be consistent, it would have to be interpreted spiritually.

But the order is inversed. Also hadiths have mentioned days and nights often as metaphors for light expanding or being veiled. For example, "the ten nights" as said to be Al-Hassan (a) to Al-Hassan (a) per a hadith.

In Misbahal Shariah it is said:

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Love of Allah is a fire which does not pass by anything without burning it up; the light of Allah does not come over something without illuminating it.

The skies of Allah do not cause a cloud to appear without it covering whatever is beneath it; the wind of Allah does not blow on something without it moving. Allah's water gives life to everything, and from Allah's earth everything grows. Whoever loves Allah is given every possession and authority.'

So there is a metaphor in Quran and ahadith of earth positive as above as well as some verses it refers to a negative nature (low vile nature). It depends on the context.

This an ambiguous view of a Quran you previously described as 'clear'.The above has too high a fog index with too many meanings. You have provided no coherent reason to selectively reject the science of evolution. You have not adequately defended the literal and clear Quran as to its description of Creation in the light of science.

 

[Link]

This an ambiguous view of a Quran you previously described as 'clear'.The above has too high a fog index with too many meanings. You have provided no coherent reason to selectively reject the science of evolution. You have not adequately defended the Quran as to its description of Creation in the light of science.

I have shown you clear verses that show what Quran says about creation of humans. You can be obtuse to them, but I can't play that game.

 

[shunyadragon]

I have shown you clear verses that show what Quran says about creation of humans. You can be obtuse to them, but I can't play that game.

No you have not and you continue to play shell games as to the meaning of the Quran and not adequately explained the fact of the literal Quran concerning Creation, but that make an incoherent rejection of evolution based on a selective agenda.

Your selection of verses carries a heavy selective interpretation, one among many conflicting interpretations, and remains 'unclear.'

Let's deal with the clear and specific verses that describe Creation and not confuse things with a high fog index interpretations..

 

[Link]

God could've explained we came from apes who came from other animals who came from earth. But the Quran never gave such a hint. It said Adam (a) was created from clay. Then after that, we are created from semen.

وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ مِنْ سُلَالَةٍ مِنْ طِينٍ | Certainly We created man from an extract of clay. | Al-Muminoon : 12

ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَكِينٍ | Then We made him a drop of [seminal] fluid [lodged] in a secure abode. | Al-Muminoon : 13

The then would not make sense if evolution was true. Man coming from apes, would mean, then there is no sequential here with "thuma".

The verses that follow:

ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنْشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ | Then We created the drop of fluid as a clinging mass. Then We created the clinging mass as a fleshy tissue. Then We created the fleshy tissue as bones. Then We clothed the bones with flesh. Then We produced him as [yet] another creature. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators! | Al-Muminoon : 14

ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ لَمَيِّتُونَ | Then indeed you die after that. | Al-Muminoon : 15

ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تُبْعَثُونَ | Then you will indeed be raised up on the Day of Resurrection. | Al-Muminoon : 16


Personally, I fear God to the extent if I knew 100% evolution was true, I would just deny the Quran, then think God talks like the way you suggest.

But I am 100% sure Quran is correct and evolution is false.

Yes, this proves Quran states evolution didn't happen with respect to humans.

 

[Link]

You have provided no coherent reason to selectively reject the science of evolution.

I've talked about consciousness. I will repeat. Evolution happens with small mutations that are beneficial, and naturally they are selected if advantageous. However, it's never many beneficial mutations at the same time leading to a big design change, that can change something for example from non-consciousness to consciousness. There is also a big vast difference between a system that would be consciousness and system that is not. Many mutations leading to a big overall change would be needed. There is no path way.

In contrast, eyes there is many things that go from this to that, there is a pathway for eyes. For example, transition can happen. The same is not true of consciousness. There is no mutation that is going to be put the ghost in the machine all of a sudden.

This shows there is paradox, it's impossible.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It is not me who claims to know that we developed from different species than our own

Correct. It's the theory of evolution that makes that claim, not you. But that's not what you wrote. Your words were, "We share DNA also with pigs, bananas, chickens, cats, mice and slugs, but does this mean that we developed from them? This is a strawman argument." I answered you. Yes, it is a strawman argument, but it's yours, not what the theory states.

Miracles and supernatural phenomena occur everyday

To the best of anybody's knowledge, they never occur.

Experts can be wrong and have many times been wrong. I trust more to what can actually be seen and tested.

I thought that you were an Abrahamic creationist. "What can actually be seen and tested" has falsified the Genesis creation story.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It is not me who claims to know that we developed from different species than our own, because ''the science'' told him so

It's the EVIDENCE that tells us that.

Miracles and supernatural phenomena occur everyday, but for the blind there won't ever be any evidence enough that they would believe

Prove it. I want to believe in as many true things as possible while not believing in as many false things as possible. I'm open to wherever the evidence leads. So, what have you got? Is it anything close to the types of demonstrable evidence that the scientific method provides us with?

 

[justaguy313]

It's the EVIDENCE that tells us that.

Prove it. I want to believe in as many true things as possible while not believing in as many false things as possible. I'm open to wherever the evidence leads. So, what have you got? Is it anything close to the types of demonstrable evidence that the scientific method provides us with?

Darwin's theory of evolution is the theory not a fact. If it were a fact it would be called that.

And yes, many people have witnessed miracles from the Qaim of Ale Muhammad and had testified about it

People with him actually saw him split the moon

Indeed if you have Faith all things are possible

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Instagram

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[It Aint Necessarily So]

Darwin's theory of evolution is the theory not a fact.

That right. It is the theory that explains the fact of evolution, and the theory is correct beyond reasonable doubt. Creationists reject it, but not using reason.

many people have witnessed miracles from the Qaim of Ale Muhammad

I don't believe that.

if you have Faith all things are possible

Yes, faith allows one to believe anything. With faith, one could believe that people have witnessed miracles.