The Problem of Evil, Messiah, and Wrath.

[MonkeyFire]

What is the angels of wrath?

It’s a living archetype, we all have one, and they are all unique and specially different and equally as great.

 

[MonkeyFire]

God is said to be "love" in the Bible. Does that mean that God has to not allow evil to exist or does it mean that He gets the best outcome for everyone when evil is seen to exist?

God doesn’t allow for evil to exist, IMO it was a human error.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God doesn’t allow for evil to exist, IMO it was a human error.

What?
Almighty God created everything in the universe.
We are capable of following righteousness and evil.

We are all sinners, as we are not perfect.

 

[MonkeyFire]

We need to go back to the story of Adam and Eve, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil to understand the source of evil. Knowledge of good and evil is what defines good and evil. For example, CO2 was not always an evil greenhouse gas, until the fear mongers defined it as evil. In the blink of an eye, a molecule became evil. Before Adam and Eve ate from that tree and learned to define good and evil, evil did not exist. There was nothing in paradise that was displayed as evil or scary. Paradise was very peaceful and loving.

God said, if you eat from this tree you shall surely die. That was the warning of the evil that would come from a type of learned knowledge; good and evil. But Satan said if you eat from the tree, you will be like God, knowing good from evil. This crossroads is when evil appeared. Eating from the tree symbolized learning; eaten this unique food for thought.

What Satan was selling was not morality, but relative morality. It was not the divine morality that was built into human nature and instinct before the fall. God knew if Adam and Eve chose relative morality, this would lead to pain, suffering, and conflict, since people will assume what is good for themselves, is also good for all. If a ruthless dictator thinks it is good to torture and kill his enemies, via his own code of relative morality, then evil will come to his nation, posing as the leader's relative good. Many citizens will help round up his critics, since this is good. To get along in culture, and not be a target, you may need to stand on your head.

Relative morality creates more than one set of rules, which will then create conflict, since everyone is not on the same page. Picture playing a sport where everyone makes up their own rules. There will be arguments and fights with people getting hurt due to conflicting rules, where each person is trying to stack the deck for themselves to win. This is where evil came from; human will and choice. The street thug who robs people with a gun is doing good by his own rules of relative morality; he is making money. The vigilante who seeks out such people for extermination, is also doing good by his own relative moral code. Both may conflict with your relative code.

If you are an eternal God, a few thousand years of humans practicing relative morality and define evil, is a blink of an eye. The humans are learning the pitfalls of relative morality, the hard way, but will eventually end up finding the natural path back too Eden. If God does it for them, they do not have free will and choice.

Jesus was a sacrifice for sin; forgiveness of sin. This did away with law, since human law is full of relative morality, which keeps evil alive; laws based on political and personal bias.

In ancient times, each culture had its own rules; clique, which did not fully overlap the rules of their neighbors. Relative morality needed to end so the conflict/evil zones, between, could be bridged. The two political parties in America, each have their own relative moral code. The game of politics has gotten out of control, due to the relative evil that is spawned. Humans do not need God to create evil out of thin air. Ironically, those who preach relative morality tend to blame god and not their own code.

Do you think mankind was tempted into knowledge of good and evil for a reason, becoming like God? Like God is the meaning of the name St. Michael, as good and evil is war, and knowledge of it is an Archangel, the general of Gods army. You will become like God, knowing good and evil.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

why are we imperfect if God has only suffered to create a sweet angel? What if we are here suffering is to save women and children, couldn’t that be alright?

What would we have to save anyone from that isn't itself an expression of God's incompetence (or misanthropy)?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think that's true. It depends on what God values in creation.

In what way?

 

[MonkeyFire]

What would we have to save anyone from that isn't itself an expression of God's incompetence (or misanthropy)?

If you don’t give hate His existence He will not exist, you can’t tempt human nature, and there are certainly things to save.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you don’t give hate His existence He will not exist, you can’t tempt human nature, and there are certainly things to save.

Sorry - I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

 

[dybmh]

In what way?

If God values improvement, then the perfect creation would include some imperfections. Just because the creation is imperfect by our own standards doesn't mean that it is imperfect by God's standards. As I said, it depends on what God values in creation. Does it make sense? Is it illogical?

 

[MonkeyFire]

Sorry - I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

Hate is a living being, and if you don’t create Him it is not better than suffering for a very short time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hate is an emotion, just like pleasure or fun are.

If God values improvement, then the perfect creation would include some imperfections. Just because the creation is imperfect by our own standards doesn't mean that it is imperfect by God's standards. As I said, it depends on what God values in creation. Does it make sense? Is it illogical?

Yeah, first creates some imperfection, then try to improve it. That is fun. Had God created us perfectly perfect, he would not have had nothing to do later. He created us perfect, but not perfectly perfect.

 

[wellwisher]

If you consider the modern idea of intelligent computers, an intelligent computer would be able to do things beyond their original programming. This is similar to modern human will and choice, which allows us to transcend our original natural programming.

If we or the computer stayed perfect to our original programming, we would not appear unique and/or in possession of will and choice, that can transcend its programing. In that sense, any defect is what makes it an upgrade. This reoccurring imperfection or glitch is what makes it unique.

The first intelligent computers will not be doing anything profound. Rather their first appearance will more than likely be something that is contrary to its programming, to help show us there is something more, there. It may appear like the terrible two's, where it becomes purely contrary. This is simple, but it can be used again and again to show its unique will and choice. This is harder to deal with, but it is also the beginnings of something better. It will evolve into a little darling.

Good and Evil are sort of relative, when you think in terms of an evolving conscious phenomena. Perfect is too stationary and is not alive. That can be done by the dumbest computers, that never tire of repetition. But to transcend the programming, it needs to break away from the program, first by being contrary, to show it has will.

God could see the update in consciousness, even in what we human call, evil. But this contrary nature was a stepping stone to help practice will and choice. The next step, for both the human and computer was to use will and choice to reconnect back to the natural/original program, and use that as a platform for further will and choice leading to program advancement.

The little child of the terrible twos, may show will by being contrary. But he can also cause harm. We may need to become contrary, to their contrary, and not allow this particular display of will and choice; hit little brother. This is part of the original program that sets tighter parameters for will and choice. leading to more structure for future choices; be nice. With God, the Messiah, evil and wrath are like the parent who helps to structure the evolving AI with the hope that they find their way to paradise. Purely contrary AI that cannot step up will be unplugged and reprogramed. Forgiveness of sins is about room to grow.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hate is a living being, and if you don’t create Him it is not better than suffering for a very short time.

I have no idea how this is supposed to be a response to what I said.

If hate is bad in the eyes of God and humans hate, then God messed up.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If God values improvement, then the perfect creation would include some imperfections. Just because the creation is imperfect by our own standards doesn't mean that it is imperfect by God's standards. As I said, it depends on what God values in creation. Does it make sense? Is it illogical?

This thread started about the idea of wrath: punishment meted out by God for failing to meet God's standards.

If we're meeting God's standards, there would be nothing for a just God to punish.

 

[Koldo]

God can’t allow for evil to exist and be omnipotent, all benevolent, and omniscient. But, the problem of evil doesn’t deny the belief in and the patience for a messiah, and Elohim created our moment of pain we let be to create the angels of Wraith. Basically God wouldn’t let wrath suffer alone, and did not damn him to heck, and honored his nature to not be inhumane by keeping a human nature dormant. Thoughts?

You need to elaborate if you want to be understood.

 

[dybmh]

This thread started about the idea of wrath: punishment meted out by God for failing to meet God's standards.

If we're meeting God's standards, there would be nothing for a just God to punish.

But does an imperfect creation "nessessarily" imply an imperfect God? No, not nessessarily.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But does an imperfect creation "nessessarily" imply an imperfect God? No, not nessessarily.

Yes, necessarily. A creation reflects on the ability of its creator. An imperfect creation implies an imperfect creator.

Whether the failure was because the design wasn't sufficient for its intended use, or the creation was subject to something unforeseen, any failure of the creation points to a failure on the part of the creator.

Even cases like misuse or sabotage end up pointing to God's failure too, since anything that could misuse or sabotage God's creation is also part of God's creation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, necessarily. A creation reflects on the ability of its creator. An imperfect creation implies an imperfect creator.

No .. this universe is finite. It was never intended to be "perfect".
Existence in this world is temporary.

 

[dybmh]

Yes, necessarily. A creation reflects on the ability of its creator. An imperfect creation implies an imperfect creator.

Whether the failure was because the design wasn't sufficient for its intended use, or the creation was subject to something unforeseen, any failure of the creation points to a failure on the part of the creator.

Even cases like misuse or sabotage end up pointing to God's failure too, since anything that could misuse or sabotage God's creation is also part of God's creation.

None of this refutes the special case where there is a deviation between what humans ( the created ) consider perfect, and what the creator god considers perfect. It's counter intuitive, but still true that if the imperfection ( by human standards ) was intended by the creator god, then it's not imperfection by the creator's standards.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

None of this refutes the special case where there is a deviation between what humans ( the created ) consider perfect, and what the creator god considers perfect. It's counter intuitive, but still true that if the imperfection ( by human standards ) was intended by the creator god, then it's not imperfection by the creator's standards.

If we're perfect by the creator's standards, then God's wrath is necessarily unjust. Do you agree?