The Problem of Evil, Messiah, and Wrath.

[Koldo]

..because like hunger and the pleasure of eating, it is part of survival of the species.
Pleasure is something we all like, but in the case of illicit relations, it can produce illegitimate offspring and cause complex social problems etc.

G-d has made us with a higher order than other creatures.
We are accountable for our deeds.
We make weapons and power stations and what-not
We create stable civilisations, with God's help.

It is part of the survival of the species, but it doesn't have to be.
I mean, the species can survive just fine if we only feel pleasure from sex when within marriage, right?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Would you rather have been a robot, with no choices, or are you glad to be able to make choices, even those that might displease Jehovah?

Also, what does God want? Mindless robot creatures, programmed to always do what’s right, or those who, by choice, fight against their inclinations, because they want to please Him?
That makes Him happy!

Proverbs 27:11

The other way — being an automaton — good behavior programmed, it would just be expected.

I know you didn't invent this ridiculous false dichotomy, but please don't pretend as if it's rational.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is part of the survival of the species, but it doesn't have to be.
I mean, the species can survive just fine if we only feel pleasure from sex when within marriage, right?

I know what you are implying..
You are saying that God must have made it difficult for us purposely.
[hypothetically, of course]

I don't see it like that.
I see that God is All Wise, Knowing.

All these comments about "God could have done it all differently" are meaningless to me.
Reality is reality, and human beings can't even create a fly,
despite their skill of making apparently "smart" arguments.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I know you didn't invent this ridiculous false dichotomy, but please don't pretend as if it's rational.

I know .. you ARE a robot, albeit a biological one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Would you rather have been a robot, with no choices, or are you glad to be able to make choices, even those that might displease Jehovah?

Also, what does God want? Mindless robot creatures, programmed to always do what’s right, or those who, by choice, fight against their inclinations, because they want to please Him?
That makes Him happy!

You believe in existence of God, I don't. I will always need make choices in life irrespective of whether God exists or not. Society will still be around irrespective of whether God exists or not.

Reality is reality, and human beings can't even create a fly,
despite their skill of making apparently "smart" arguments.

Human beings cannot make a fly (at least at present), but why do we need to make flies if evolution has already created trillions of flies, mosquitoes and cockroaches? That is not a very smart argument either, IMHO.

.. but in the case of illicit relations, it can produce illegitimate offspring and cause complex social problems etc.

It is for that reason that society prohibits sex outside marriage. It is not because any God wants it that way.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I know you didn't invent this ridiculous false dichotomy, but please don't pretend as if it's rational.

Of course it’s rational! When you consider all the details involved.

Are you aware of all of them? Repercussions from A&E’s act of rebellion, due to Adam’s ability to make choices, affected all intelligent creatures (angels) watching this unfold, watching to see how Jehovah would respond… not just to Adam’s rebellion, but the Devil’s too.

Most people don’t consider those issues.

 

[Aupmanyav]

These are nice stories. Want more? Read Bhagawat Purana.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course it’s rational! When you consider all the details involved.

Are you aware of all of them? Repercussions from A&E’s act of rebellion, due to Adam’s ability to make choices, affected all intelligent creatures (angels) watching this unfold, watching to see how Jehovah would respond… not just to Adam’s rebellion, but the Devil’s too.

Most people don’t consider those issues.

Of course it's irrational. When someone is free to follow their desires, the range of what they'll do is still constrained by what they desire to do.

IOW, a designed being with free will would only ever do evil if it were made to have evil tendencies by its creator.

As for the stuff about Adam inspiring the Devil: that's a new one to me, but this still sounds like it reflects negatively on God. I mean, what you're describing is a house of cards where one small "poke" - in the form of Adam not acting perfectly on one occasion - caused the whole thing to crash down.

IOW, you're describing a poor design made by a poor designer.

 

[muhammad_isa]

IOW, a designed being with free will would only ever do evil if it were made to have evil tendencies by its creator..

No .. it is quite possible to commit evil deeds, while not even consciously realising it.
One of the greatest evils, is to turn away from God, yet you do not perceive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No .. it is quite possible to commit evil deeds, while not even consciously realising it.
One of the greatest evils, is to turn away from God, yet you do not perceive.

Maybe read a few posts back in a thread before replying next time, K?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe read a few posts back in a thread before replying next time, K?

Do I have to go further back than this?
You said..
"This doesn't speak to the core issue in the problem of evil: a creator whose creation doesn't meet his own standard is an imperfect creator."

..but that is false.
Human beings being capable of evil, comes with the territory of having responsibility for our actions.

 

[Koldo]

I know what you are implying..
You are saying that God must have made it difficult for us purposely.
[hypothetically, of course]

I don't see it like that.
I see that God is All Wise, Knowing.

All these comments about "God could have done it all differently" are meaningless to me.
Reality is reality, and human beings can't even create a fly,
despite their skill of making apparently "smart" arguments.

It is more like... It doesn't make sense...
If I wanted you to do A and refrain from doing B, why would I make doing A a hassle and make doing B really joyful? Why not the other way around?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do I have to go further back than this?
You said..
"This doesn't speak to the core issue in the problem of evil: a creator whose creation doesn't meet his own standard is an imperfect creator."

..but that is false.
Human beings being capable of evil, comes with the territory of having responsibility for our actions.

Bouncing back and forth between you and other posters is getting annoying:

Other poster: "My belief is ____."

Me: Okay. Let's talk about what that belief implies.

@muhammad_isa : but that implication doesn't apply to *me*, because *I* believe something slightly different! Address *my* beliefs, even though they weren't what you were talking about!

This gets old, so I think I'm done. If I feel like engaging with you and your beliefs, I'll let you know. Until then, please stop trying to derail the thread.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is more like... It doesn't make sense...
If I wanted you to do A and refrain from doing B, why would I make doing A a hassle and make doing B really joyful? Why not the other way around?

Why not make gravity act upwards instead of downwards?
It just doesn't.

The bottom line is, that we are responsible for our actions.
A believer tries to follow Divine decree, while a disbeliever does not.

Many things in life that are worth having, do not come easy.

 

[Koldo]

No .. it is quite possible to commit evil deeds, while not even consciously realising it.
One of the greatest evils, is to turn away from God, yet you do not perceive.

How do you understand the word 'evil'?
Are you acquainted with the term 'divine command theory'? If yes, does it describe your views on ethics?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Bouncing back and forth between you and other posters is getting annoying:
...
please stop trying to derail the thread.

Which poster/post in particular are you referring to, that has said something completely different to me?

 

[Koldo]

Why not make gravity act upwards instead of downwards?
It just doesn't.

The bottom line is, that we are responsible for our actions.
A believer tries to follow Divine decree, while a disbeliever does not.

Many things in life that are worth having, do not come easy.

I am not saying we are not responsible for what we do. We certainly are. Although the creator certainly shares responsibility too when it is a perfect creator.

What I am saying is that it doesn't make sense to make people feel good when they do something you never wanted them to do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Which poster/post in particular are you referring to, that has said something completely different to me?

What part of "I think I'm done" are you having trouble with?

 

[muhammad_isa]

How do you understand the word 'evil'?

The OP starts off with "God can’t allow for evil to exist and be omnipotent, all benevolent, and omniscient.", so I speak in the Abrahamic sense.
Evil is turning away from God .. turning away from righteousness.

Are you acquainted with the term 'divine command theory'?

No.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What I am saying is that it doesn't make sense to make people feel good when they do something you never wanted them to do.

That's too simplistic.
Almighty God doesn't want us to be greedy, for example.
While we are eating loads of food, we enjoy it .. but we might well suffer later.
I don't see that as a "fault in design" .. I see that as a person not controlling their desires.