The Problem of Evil, Messiah, and Wrath.

[Koldo]

The OP starts off with "God can’t allow for evil to exist and be omnipotent, all benevolent, and omniscient.", so I speak in the Abrahamic sense.
Evil is turning away from God .. turning away from righteousness.

No.

Let me try this way: Do you consider murder to be evil? If yes, why? If not, why not?

 

[Koldo]

That's too simplistic.
Almighty God doesn't want us to be greedy, for example.
While we are eating loads of food, we enjoy it .. but we might well suffer later.
I don't see that as a "fault in design" .. I see that as a person not controlling their desires.

What are you referring to when you speak of 'we might well suffer later'?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What are you referring to when you speak of 'we might well suffer later'?

Greed is not good for us, in this life or the next.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Let me try this way: Do you consider murder to be evil? If yes, why? If not, why not?

I have been raised in a society which sticks to the moral value that murder is evil. It has its roots in Christianity. i.e. UK

If we look in history, we find that Christianity started to flourish in walled cities.
Clearly, many people outside these cities did not share the same values.

 

[Koldo]

Greed is not good for us, in this life or the next.

What are you imagining when you say that? What kind of scenarios come up in your mind when you say that? What kind of suffering are you thinking of?

 

[Koldo]

I have been raised in a society which sticks to the moral value that murder is evil. It has its roots in Christianity. i.e. UK

If we look in history, we find that Christianity started to flourish in walled cities.
Clearly, many people outside these cities did not share the same values.

I am not sure I understand. Do you mean you consider murder to be evil because you were raised to think of murder as evil and that's it, no other particular reason?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What are you imagining when you say that? What kind of scenarios come up in your mind when you say that? What kind of suffering are you thinking of?

I don't know .. bowel cancer or what have you?
Spiritual sicknesses, such as sefishness and the social problems it causes for us?
Will that do?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am not sure I understand. Do you mean you consider murder to be evil because you were raised to think of murder as evil and that's it, no other particular reason?

Again, I know what you are driving at.
We all have a conscience, yet we often consider our survival to be more important.
For a civilised society to be successful, we need to have our priorities right.

"murder" [the killing of your fellow human], is only lawful in exceptional circumstances. i.e. a just war
..and it is not a citizen who can decide what is "just", by the way.
..no "kangaroo courts"

 

[Koldo]

I don't know .. bowel cancer or what have you?
Spiritual sicknesses, such as sefishness and the social problems it causes for us?
Will that do?

Yes. Let's use bowel cancer as an example.
A given person experiences good feelings while they are eating, then later on, much later down the road, they suffer from bowel cancer. How is that effective to teach to that person that they shouldn't have eaten too much? Wouldn't it have been more effective to make that person not experience good feelings after eating enough?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..How is that effective to teach to that person that they shouldn't have eaten too much? Wouldn't it have been more effective to make that person not experience good feelings after eating enough?

Many people do.

However, in the case of greed with money, it still applies.
If people don't want to listen to God, then that's affair.

 

[Koldo]

Again, I know what you are driving at.
We all have a conscience, yet we often consider our survival to be more important.
For a civilised society to be successful, we need to have our priorities right.

"murder" [the killing of your fellow human], is only lawful in exceptional circumstances. i.e. a just war
..and it is not a citizen who can decide what is "just", by the way.
..no "kangaroo courts"

I am talking about ethics and morality, in other words I am asking if you consider murder to be evil, and why, not if it is lawful.

There are different answers to this question in philosophy. I would like to know what is yours.

 

[Koldo]

Many people do.

However, in the case of greed with money, it still applies.
If people don't want to listen to God, then that's affair.

Many people do? What specifically?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Many people do? What specifically?

Huh???
Stomach ache, of course.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am talking about ethics and morality..

There are different answers to this question in philosophy. I would like to know what is yours.

I don't much care for Greek philosophy.
The OP refers to the Abrahamic God.

That is where I obtain my morality, apart from my conscience, of course.

 

[Koldo]

I don't much care for Greek philosophy.
The OP refers to the Abrahamic God.

That is where I obtain my morality, apart from my conscience, of course.

I am not referring to Greek philosophy though. At least not specifically.

Let me try another approach: Can God decree that murder is moral? Does he have that power over what is moral and what is not? If yes, that is called divine command theory. If he can't do that, on what basis does he call something moral?

 

[Koldo]

Huh???
Stomach ache, of course.

Wouldn't it be more effective to cease the good feelings experienced from eating before the stomach ache starts?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..on what basis does he [God] call something moral?

He has complete authority over His creation.
The "morals" do not apply to Him.
He cannot be murdered .. neither can He murder.

The "morals" that we obtain from Scripture are the guidance that God sent down to us through His messengers.
They are for our benefit .. individually, and collectively.

God knows what He has created, and what is good for our soul, or against it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Wouldn't it be more effective to cease the good feelings experienced from eating before the stomach ache starts?

You keep suggesting "alternate realities", as if there is something wrong with what we have already.
The only thing wrong, is our inherrant weakness to "follow orders".

It is obvious, that God could tell us, through pleasure and pain, or some internal voice, every minute or two.
..but that is not what He ordained. We have to take responsibility for ourselves.

Even if we were designed differently, people would still do things they weren't supposed to.
..like speeding down a road, even though you know it's dangerous.
I suppose you'll tell me that God should have made our bodies to "bounce" or something.

 

[Koldo]

He has complete authority over His creation.
The "morals" do not apply to Him.
He cannot be murdered .. neither can He murder.

The "morals" that we obtain from Scripture are the guidance that God sent down to us through His messengers.
They are for our benefit .. individually, and collectively.

God knows what He has created, and what is good for our soul, or against it.

Can God decree that murder is moral? Does he have that power over what is moral and what is not?

I think that your answer is yes, but I want to make sure.

 

[Koldo]

You keep suggesting "alternate realities", as if there is something wrong with what we have already.

Not necessarily wrong per se. But less efficient.

The only thing wrong, is our inherrant weakness to "follow orders".

That's actually another odd thing. We have never received any order from God and yet we are supposed to follow them...

It is obvious, that God could tell us, through pleasure and pain, or some internal voice, every minute or two.
..but that is not what He ordained.

Thus the question: Why not? It doesn't make sense.

We have to take responsibility for ourselves.

I am not saying otherwise. Everyone is responsible for what they do. Humans and God.

Even if we were designed differently, people would still do things they weren't supposed to.
..like speeding down a road, even though you know it's dangerous.
I suppose you'll tell me that God should have made our bodies to "bounce" or something.

I would say immortal. Why does anything even need to be dangerous?