The Problem of Foreknowledge

[Skwim]

I don't think such a being would have free will let alone be able give it's creation any freewill. Either omnipotence or omniscience has to give a little.

100%

 

[Nakosis]

I don't think such a being would have free will let alone be able give it's creation any freewill. Either omnipotence or omniscience has to give a little.

How about the future will be as God declares it to be until/unless God changes his mind.

You see God as subject to this future. What if only we are subject to it.

If God is all powerful then he is not subject to his creation. There is no future for God so there is nothing for God to have knowledge of. God could be in the past, present and future all at the same time. Alter any of it at will. Complete, unconditional freewill.

 

[Skwim]

How about the future will be as God declares it to be until/unless God changes his mind.

How does this impact his foreknowledge?

You see God as subject to this future. What if only we are subject to it.

What does it mean to be "subject to this future"?

If God is all powerful then he is not subject to his creation.

What does it mean to be "not subject to his creation"?

There is no future for God so there is nothing for God to have knowledge of.

So you're opting out of the discussion. Okay.

God could be in the past, present and future all at the same time. Alter any of it at will. Complete, unconditional freewill.

Care to be coherent?

 

[Nakosis]

How does this impact his foreknowledge?

There wouldn't be a foreknowledge. God would exist equally, simultaneously in the future as in the present and past. Our "future" would be God's now. It and the present would not be determined by the past as it is for us. There would be no causal chain connecting the future to any events in the present.

What does it mean to be "subject to this future"?

God could change the future at will. God could change our future, the future of man at will. Though I suppose for the sake of theology chooses not to. So the future for man that God decrees, God is under no obligation to let it unfold as such.

What does it mean to be "not subject to his creation"?

God, being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Means he can create man's past, present and future at will. God's creation, man cannot.

So you're opting out of the discussion. Okay.

Actually I'm pointing to a possible false premise in the original post. It leaves out the concept of omnipresence. God exists in all places at all times. There is no "future" that God is not already there.

Care to be coherent?

But that is the point. There is no necessary coherency. From an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent POV past, present and future have no interdependency. Therefore they need not be coherent in the sense of man's expectations.

In the sense of theology, God allows man to have this coherency of past, present and future. In terms of freewill, God allows man to choose his future. However has no obligation to do so and can at will change man's past present and future.

Man's concept of foreknowledge becomes a paradox only if they don't allow the concept of God to be fully omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

 

[jtartar]

(a.k.a. Beating a Dead Horse)

The problem of God's foreknowledge vs. Man's free will was dealt with by past philosophers by specifying the distinction between knowledge and prediction in regards to truth, and holding that foreknowledge, even God's, is prediction.


Do you agree with this assessment? Why or why not?

Willamena,
There are other points to ponder when dealing with foreknowledge.
In the first place, knowing that something will happen does not mean that you caused it to happen. I know that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I will not cause it. By looking at computers a meteorologist knows that it will rain tomorrow,but he does not cause it to rain. I know that if I drop something off a cliff it will go down.
There is no doubt that The Almighty Creator has the power to look into the future, but there is no evidence to indicate He does so, except in very extreme cases. Almost all cases God's foreknowledge is general, not about individuals.
An even more important point is this: Before God created angels or men there was no evil in the universe, Deut 32:4. If God foreknew that men and angels would go against His wishes, this would mean that God Himself started the evil that eventually came about, because there was none before He foreknew their course.
When a person decides to become somethng, he is SELFBORN, as to whatever he becomes. God made Satan perfect, he later became a selfborn sinner, the same with Adam and Eve, Deut 32:5.
In the Greek Scriptures there are several scriptures that speak of the Foreknowledge of God. Each of these scriptures speak about a GROUP of people, not about individuals in that group. Eph 1:5 is speaking about a group that would be adopted, but God does not foreknow each of the ones in that group that would be adopted.
One very great exception is God's son. God did foreknow many things about His son. God knew His OnlyBegotten son so well that He knew beforehand what Jesus would do. Jesus was the exact representation of God, Heb 1:3.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

There wouldn't be a foreknowledge. God would exist equally, simultaneously in the future as in the present and past. Our "future" would be God's now. It and the present would not be determined by the past as it is for us. There would be no causal chain connecting the future to any events in the present.
God could change the future at will. God could change our future, the future of man at will. Though I suppose for the sake of theology chooses not to. So the future for man that God decrees, God is under no obligation to let it unfold as such.
God, being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Means he can create man's past, present and future at will. God's creation, man cannot.
Actually I'm pointing to a possible false premise in the original post. It leaves out the concept of omnipresence. God exists in all places at all times. There is no "future" that God is not already there.
But that is the point. There is no necessary coherency. From an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent POV past, present and future have no interdependency. Therefore they need not be coherent in the sense of man's expectations.

In the sense of theology, God allows man to have this coherency of past, present and future. In terms of freewill, God allows man to choose his future. However has no obligation to do so and can at will change man's past present and future.

Man's concept of foreknowledge becomes a paradox only if they don't allow the concept of God to be fully omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

Because God is able to view past present and future simultaneously, he knows beforehand how his work tuns out, and since he cannot be wrong, there is no free will. You have essentially listed all the properties of predestination here. God doesn't 'allow' anything because he was responsible for all conditions and thus, all outcomes; and he is aware, at the beginning, what they all are at the end, infallibly.

Essentially your entire set of paragraphs renders void your own sentence of " In terms of freewill, God allows man to choose his future." Given everything else you say, that sentence makes no sense.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because God is able to view past present and future simultaneously, he knows beforehand how his work tuns out, and since he cannot be wrong, there is no free will.

Oh no, not again!

What do you mean by "he knows beforehand how his work turns out" ?
Who's beforehand, ours or God's? God doesn't have any beforehand, so it can't be His

So it must be ours .. what has what we perceive got to do with it? From 'where God is standing', what we are about to do has already happened

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Oh no, not again!

What do you mean by "he knows beforehand how his work turns out" ?
Who's beforehand, ours or God's? God doesn't have any beforehand, so it can't be His

So it must be ours .. what has what we perceive got to do with it? From 'where God is standing', what we are about to do has already happened

Well, of course it's ours. That's a big part of the point. God knows the entirety of it, as far as our measurement is concerned, from the beginning. To him it's all the same. By our measurement, it IS predetermined because God already knows.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Essentially, Mohammad, the problem with foreknowledge destroying free will is that God made both the past and the future [from our perspective] all at once. This work of his, in its entirety, came about as a single piece simultaneously [from God's perspective]. Thus, our 'choices' arose simultaneous with our outcomes. Our free will is simply an illusion to us.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God made both the past and the future [from our perspective] all at once.

Eh? How come that?
I thought that our planet evolved in '6 days' (of controversial length)

This work of his, in its entirety, came about as a single piece simultaneously [from God's perspective]. Thus, our 'choices' arose simultaneous with our outcomes.

That sort of reasoning is meaningless .. the fact that God is aware of all dimensions, doesn't mean that the dimensions don't exist, and that our lives aren't meaningful.
Heard of imaginary numbers? Most mathematicians prefer the term 'complex'

It's the perception of time itself, that might be a source of confusion .. what is it?
We define it in terms of space, but God created space, so what does that mean? Naturally, it means that time and space are inextricably linked.

Yet, as often occurs in calculus, if you take it to the limit approaching infinity, it (time & space) disappears, leaving just God, The Eternal One :candle:

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Eh? How come that?
I thought that our planet evolved in '6 days' (of controversial length)

That is only from our perspective.

That sort of reasoning is meaningless ..

You mean, it's axiomatic and you have no intelligent counter.

the fact that God is aware of all dimensions, doesn't mean that the dimensions don't exist, and that our lives aren't meaningful.
Heard of imaginary numbers? Most mathematicians prefer the term 'complex'

Irrelevant. Our dimensions may exist but they don't exist, or are no barrier to, your being who exists outside of them [as we've been hearing nonstop through this and other threads] whom you call God.
'that our lives aren't meaningful' is non sequitur to what I said.

It's the perception of time itself, that might be a source of confusion .. what is it?
We define it in terms of space, but God created space, so what does that mean? Naturally, it means that time and space are inextricably linked.

Yet, as often occurs in calculus, if you take it to the limit approaching infinity, it (time & space) disappears, leaving just God, The Eternal One

You are inadvertently making my point with this confused waffling. Reread what I said. BECAUSE our time dimension is meaningless TO GOD, our actions are predetermined and thus, we have no free will. I greatly appreciate the QED you have just given my point.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Well, that couldn't have gone much better. lol :clap

 

[Dirty Penguin]

How about the future will be as God declares it to be until/unless God changes his mind.

This would not effect "God's" foreknowledge though. If this particular god "changes his mind" then surely he knew he would change his mind before he changed it.

If God is all powerful then he is not subject to his creation. There is no future for God so there is nothing for God to have knowledge of. God could be in the past, present and future all at the same time. Alter any of it at will. Complete, unconditional freewill.

Then this, to me, rules out the existence of "God". "IF" I were to accept anything from the bible then your description of "God" above rules out his existence. How can a "God" transcend space and time but require his creation to do A, B and C and if it doesn't it would be subject to punishment X, Y and Z? The requirements from "God" as laid out in the bible are futile. Surely this god would have known before he created space and time that I, his supposed creation, would not follow any of it.......and if he already knows this then surely I will not be punished for not following his book....

A case can be made that he knows it and will still punish me for not following his book and if that is the case then there is no such thing as free will or sin. To me it doesn't make sense that a transcendent god would exist that is omnipotent/omniscient.....


:sad:

 

[mr black]

If God is all powerful then he is not subject to his creation. There is no future for God so there is nothing for God to have knowledge of. God could be in the past, present and future all at the same time. Alter any of it at will. Complete, unconditional freewill.

If god knows our future, then nothing we do alters where we finish up. Heaven or Hell, according to GOD we are already there.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If god knows our future, then nothing we do alters where we finish up. Heaven or Hell, according to GOD we are already there.

I agree with you 'black', for once

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then this, to me, rules out the existence of "God".

Oh well .. nevermind .. there can be no heaven for you then!

 

[muhammad_isa]

BECAUSE our time dimension is meaningless TO GOD, our actions are predetermined and thus, we have no free will

Oh really? Guess what .. what's meaningless to 'heathens', is not meaningless TO GOD

How can you say that 'our time dimension' is meaning less to God? That's absurd .. He created space-time. He created everything

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Oh well .. nevermind .. there can be no heaven for you then!

Irrelevant..!

 

[mr black]

I agree with you 'black', for once

In that case, if god knows that you will stab and kill your next door neighbour next week, because his dog soiled your front yard and that you will go to hell as a result of that decision, then you will. Because you cannot change god's knowledge. So all of the praying and good works you have done in the past and future are meaningless, because god has already seen you in hell.

 

[Willamena]

Willamena,
There are other points to ponder when dealing with foreknowledge.
In the first place, knowing that something will happen does not mean that you caused it to happen. I know that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I will not cause it. By looking at computers a meteorologist knows that it will rain tomorrow,but he does not cause it to rain. I know that if I drop something off a cliff it will go down.

Right. That's prediction, a statement about the future that doesn't have the truth value that something that is actual has. With no truth value, the future has no status as actual.

There is no doubt that The Almighty Creator has the power to look into the future, but there is no evidence to indicate He does so, except in very extreme cases. Almost all cases God's foreknowledge is general, not about individuals.

With no status as actual, even God cannot "look into the future" --there is actually nothing there to "see". What we call the "future" exists only in language, as propositions that we can compose in word. This is, I believe, what the philosophers in the OP are suggesting. God's "omniscience" only requires that he know true (actual) things, not the future.

So, what do you think of that?

An even more important point is this: Before God created angels or men there was no evil in the universe, Deut 32:4. If God foreknew that men and angels would go against His wishes, this would mean that God Himself started the evil that eventually came about, because there was none before He foreknew their course.
When a person decides to become somethng, he is SELFBORN, as to whatever he becomes. God made Satan perfect, he later became a selfborn sinner, the same with Adam and Eve, Deut 32:5.

I like the term "selfborn," as it resembles the "birth and death" of my readings in Zen. But in any case, with no actual future and God not "seeing" it, the free will of all conscious beings, "becoming" in each moment, is preserved, and any blame that might be cast God's way for plotting is rendered meaningless.

In the Greek Scriptures there are several scriptures that speak of the Foreknowledge of God. Each of these scriptures speak about a GROUP of people, not about individuals in that group. Eph 1:5 is speaking about a group that would be adopted, but God does not foreknow each of the ones in that group that would be adopted.
One very great exception is God's son. God did foreknow many things about His son. God knew His OnlyBegotten son so well that He knew beforehand what Jesus would do. Jesus was the exact representation of God, Heb 1:3.