The Problem of Suffering

[victormeldrew]

I have yet to hear a sensible explanation from theists for the existence of suffering in a world created by a benevolent, omnipotent God. Their explanations mostly come in the following categories:

#1 The purpose of suffering is a mystery, known only to God. He will reveal all at the end of the world. (A useless dodging of the question.)

#2 God punishes sinful people. This sin may be original and general (Adam's), or specific, i.e. individuals who are suffering have been sinful. A variation is that individuals suffer in this life for sins they committed in a previous life. (This conveniently accounts for the suffering of apparently good people.)

#3 God causes suffering to bring people to faith, or strengthen their faith, or test their faith (e.g. Job).

(I have been told by religious people who have suffered that God helped them through their suffering, but they deny that God caused their suffering, while simultaneously believing explanation #2.)

#4 God can answer prayers to relieve suffering, and would rather do this than prevent the original cause of the suffering. His reasons for doing this are not for us to question (see reason #1), but might be reason #3.

#5 The Devil causes suffering, and God allows this, because he wants us to choose between good and evil. (A variation on #2 and #3) The world would be a boring place, theists say, with no power to choose and no reason for faith. (Does that mean Heaven will be boring, for eternity?)

These sound like made-up stories to me, but then I do not have to start from the position that God causes or allows suffering, because I don't believe in God. I don't have to go through the philosophical gymnastics of designing bizarre models of the solar system to fit my preconceived notion that the Earth is at the center (as befits God's perfect plan).

This video presents a view of the nature of the Universe, and our place in it, based on the current evidence, instead of starting with the preconception of divine benevolent creation.

God says sorry. - YouTube

But if any theist can provide me with an alternative plausible reason for the existence of suffering, my mind is open to receive it.

Victor

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, it's difficult to learn, but what's the real problem with surfing?
Oh, sufferi......never mind.

 

[Otherright]

I think if you want genuine insight into suffering, its causes and cessation, you're going to have to take a look at Buddhism. The four noble truths, the basis of suffering, cause, and cessation, are the fundamental principles of Buddhism.

 

[Sunstone]

Buddhism does indeed seem to offer a superior analysis of suffering, or dukkha.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Benevolent Creation does not seem correct (100% agree) and suffering IMO is nothing more than cause and effect of Humanity and their actions (kind of like a balance that needs to be kept, like an unbreakable "law of Physics")

 

[orcel]

I often describe it like this...

Suffering exists because evil exists, Evil exists because as humans we have the power to stand up and block goodness.

You see goodness and evil is much like light and darkness. For light to exist we need a light source. For goodness to exist we need a good-source (IE God). But darkness doesn't actually exist other then as an absence of light. In much the same way evil (and suffering) come into existence when we humans block out goodness and create a shadow.

 

[Breathe]

Here are two more:

Suffering is part of life, but ultimately all suffering is an illusion?
And then of course, there is the karmic idea as well - as you sow, so shall you reap. If not in this lifetime, then in another.

 

[Meow Mix]

I often describe it like this...

Suffering exists because evil exists, Evil exists because as humans we have the power to stand up and block goodness.

You see goodness and evil is much like light and darkness. For light to exist we need a light source. For goodness to exist we need a good-source (IE God). But darkness doesn't actually exist other then as an absence of light. In much the same way evil (and suffering) come into existence when we humans block out goodness and create a shadow.

So, in what way did humans have anything to do with tsunamis, child leukemia, and other horrible things like the disease leishmaniasis that literally eats peoples' faces off while they're still alive?

Just curious.

 

[Willamena]

I've yet to hear a logical argument as to why the world should be any way other than it is.

 

[DandyAndy]

I have yet to hear a sensible explanation from theists for the existence of suffering in a world created by a benevolent, omnipotent God. Their explanations mostly come in the following categories:

I'm coming at this from a Christian perspective - I can't speak for any other religion.

Opinions and what the Bible says are sadly different most of the time. I'm going to give you what I understand the Bible to say about the subject - I can give you the verses/chapters/books if you want, but it would take a while.

Also, everything I say should be checked/verified with the Bible since Christianity isn't about what I say or what I think God might have been trying to say.

*I understand if you don't believe in God you don't believe in the validity of the Bible either, but if you want an answer to a Godly question, you gotta go to the Godly source, which is the Bible.

#1 The purpose of suffering is a mystery, known only to God. He will reveal all at the end of the world. (A useless dodging of the question.)

I think this is true if we want a 100% for sure no doubts no questions fully understandable answer. I don't think that is possible for humanity though. But this is a cop-out answer and most should be able to give a better answer (I would hope).

#2 God punishes sinful people. This sin may be original and general (Adam's), or specific, i.e. individuals who are suffering have been sinful. A variation is that individuals suffer in this life for sins they committed in a previous life. (This conveniently accounts for the suffering of apparently good people.)

I would say this is not fully Biblical - not the first and certainly not the second part.

It is true that in this temporal life God punished wicked people in the OT - but in the OT, God was 'introducing' Himself to the world and a group of people, He was setting a standard for His character. It makes sense that if He was a just and holy God, the wicked that would never turn from their evil ways would be punished.

I would urge you double check this, but I think there are 0 instances of God literally punishing anyone in this temporal life in the NT (other than Revelation obviously but that is a prophecy of future events).

Once God made Himself known in the OT and through Jesus, I don't know what else He could say on the matter - He made it very clear that anyone not accepting the offer of mercy via Christ will be punished in the afterlife. All are guilty and we need a pardon. I don't see God's wrath/vengeance/punishment fitting into this temporal life until we see the events of Revelation take full effect.

#3 God causes suffering to bring people to faith, or strengthen their faith, or test their faith (e.g. Job).

(I have been told by religious people who have suffered that God helped them through their suffering, but they deny that God caused their suffering, while simultaneously believing explanation #2.)

I personally think the case of Job was unique in the way that all other OT stories were - they revealed something about God and His character.

But, this sounds like it could at least be Biblically possible - maybe - I just don't have the wisdom/education to answer it and say yes or no.

Sorry.

#4 God can answer prayers to relieve suffering, and would rather do this than prevent the original cause of the suffering. His reasons for doing this are not for us to question (see reason #1), but might be reason #3.

I don't think this is Biblical either, I've never really heard it or read it before. God can answer prayers. If God stopped most suffering, He would be violating the whole free will thing, which He wouldn't do.

Other suffering such as disease, natural disasters and other things not caused by the wicked acts of people are a result of sin entering into the world and the curse God put upon Creation as a result of sin entering the world (Genesis 3).

#5 The Devil causes suffering, and God allows this, because he wants us to choose between good and evil. (A variation on #2 and #3) The world would be a boring place, theists say, with no power to choose and no reason for faith. (Does that mean Heaven will be boring, for eternity?)

I don't know about this one...I think in an indirect way Satan causes suffering when an individual gives into the temptations of sin. God allows the suffering because Adam and Eve allowed sin to enter into the world and gave up their authority over this world to Satan - which is why Satan is described as 'King of this world.'

I don't think the world being a boring place or not has anything to do with it - it all seems to be the consequence of choice - not a way to make things interesting.

These sound like made-up stories to me, but then I do not have to start from the position that God causes or allows suffering, because I don't believe in God. I don't have to go through the philosophical gymnastics of designing bizarre models of the solar system to fit my preconceived notion that the Earth is at the center (as befits God's perfect plan).

This video presents a view of the nature of the Universe, and our place in it, based on the current evidence, instead of starting with the preconception of divine benevolent creation.

God says sorry. - YouTube

But if any theist can provide me with an alternative plausible reason for the existence of suffering, my mind is open to receive it.

Victor

They could be made up stories and they could be real accounts - that's the issue we have to figure out for ourselves. I don't think there's much of a need for philosophical gymnastics if the Bible is correct.

I hope this helped. I'm not very good at explaining things.

 

[Pegg]

But if any theist can provide me with an alternative plausible reason for the existence of suffering, my mind is open to receive it.

Victor

The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) The world is merely reflecting the personality of its invisible ruler, Satan. He is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world of mankind, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. This causes a lot of suffering.

And like their invisible ruler, sinful humans struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and more suffering. Men express their desire for dominance over women, and this causes suffering for women & children.

And we are lacking in the wisdom to know how to manage the earth correctly, this results in suffering and food shortages and environmental degradation.


The good news is that God will soon do something about this situation. He will remove satan and his influence for a start, then he will remove the ruler ships of imperfect humans...then he will teach us how to live properly. There are lots of good things to look forward to.

 

[Meow Mix]

I've yet to hear a logical argument as to why the world should be any way other than it is.

Problem of evil/suffering only works given the premises of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (e.g., never malevolent) being creating the universe. This contradicts with the existence of a lot of suffering in the same way it contradicts to say that a pair of loving and knowledgeable parents would willingly leave a loaded revolver in a baby's crib.

There is no problem of evil if any of those premises aren't true. The PoE only aims to show certain believers that believe in a certain set of assumptions that their premises contradict with the actual world and so can't be true.

 

[Willamena]

Problem of evil/suffering only works given the premises of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (e.g., never malevolent) being creating the universe. This contradicts with the existence of a lot of suffering in the same way it contradicts to say that a pair of loving and knowledgeable parents would willingly leave a loaded revolver in a baby's crib.

There is no problem of evil if any of those premises aren't true. The PoE only aims to show certain believers that believe in a certain set of assumptions that their premises contradict with the actual world and so can't be true.

I've no argument with that, just with people who pose the problem of evil as questioning the existence of suffering.

 

[Rakhel]

people are idiots who can figure out where they went wrong.

 

[Meow Mix]

people are idiots who can figure out where they went wrong.

I thought the idiots were the ones that don't realize they could possibly be wrong?

 

[Rakhel]

I thought the idiots were the ones that don't realize they could possibly be wrong?

What do you mean? Idiots never make mistakes.

 

[victormeldrew]

The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) The world is merely reflecting the personality of its invisible ruler, Satan. He is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world of mankind, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. This causes a lot of suffering.

And like their invisible ruler, sinful humans struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and more suffering. Men express their desire for dominance over women, and this causes suffering for women & children.

And we are lacking in the wisdom to know how to manage the earth correctly, this results in suffering and food shortages and environmental degradation.


The good news is that God will soon do something about this situation. He will remove satan and his influence for a start, then he will remove the ruler ships of imperfect humans...then he will teach us how to live properly. There are lots of good things to look forward to.

Answer #5. And are you really saying that if we had more wisdom we could prevent earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes and the like? Why did God not give us the wisdom to do this, or why did He allow the invisible ruler to take this wisdom from us?

When God removes Satan, and the imperfect human rulers, will he stop the natural disasters from happening?

Victor

 

[Looncall]

The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) The world is merely reflecting the personality of its invisible ruler, Satan. He is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world of mankind, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. This causes a lot of suffering.

And like their invisible ruler, sinful humans struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and more suffering. Men express their desire for dominance over women, and this causes suffering for women & children.

And we are lacking in the wisdom to know how to manage the earth correctly, this results in suffering and food shortages and environmental degradation.


The good news is that God will soon do something about this situation. He will remove satan and his influence for a start, then he will remove the ruler ships of imperfect humans...then he will teach us how to live properly. There are lots of good things to look forward to.

if god can do this later, he can presumably do it now, so he is still responsible for suffering. You cannot escape that.

 

[Madhuri]

What Odion said is true from the Hindu pov. To expand, suffering is a result of ignorance. Actions born of ignorance inevitably cause harm. We bring it onto ourselves. The only way to overcome suffering is to become enlightened (realised).
Both pleasure and pain (all experiences) allow for learning. Leaning and maturity are the point of life on this Earth. You cannot become a wise person with only pleasure and ease. No lessons are learned.

 

[Looncall]

I often describe it like this...

Suffering exists because evil exists, Evil exists because as humans we have the power to stand up and block goodness.

You see goodness and evil is much like light and darkness. For light to exist we need a light source. For goodness to exist we need a good-source (IE God). But darkness doesn't actually exist other then as an absence of light. In much the same way evil (and suffering) come into existence when we humans block out goodness and create a shadow.

What does this have to do with the horrific suffering that occurs in nature? You seem to be concerned only about humans.