Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Yeah, it's only a problem when one posits the existence of an all-powerful, all-loving god. Otherwise, the existence of suffering is perfectly logical.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Problem of Suffering
- Thread starter victormeldrew
- Start date
Yeah, it's only a problem when one posits the existence of an all-powerful, all-loving god. Otherwise, the existence of suffering is perfectly logical.
DandyAndy
Active Member
It has nothing to do with wisdom I don't think - Adam and Eve were given domain/rulership over the Earth. Then they gave that 'crown' to Satan, which is why Satan rules this world - in the temptation of Christ, Satan was able to offer Christ all the kingdoms of the world because they belong to Satan. God allowed Satan to have that 'crown' because it was given to Adam and Eve and it was theirs do with as they saw fit - and they gave it to Satan.
All the natural disasters and stuff are a result of the curse God put upon the ground. God cursed the ground as a result of Adam and Eve's choice - it was a consequence of it, just like death and painful childbirth and toil and strife. It's all in Genesis chapters 1-3.
But to answer your question, check out Revelation, especially the later chapters, to see how God fixes everything - He will basically restore what is broken, the way someone would restore an old piece of furniture, and bring it to its original and perfect state. So there will be no natural disasters that I know of since they cause pain and suffering and there will be no pain and suffering in the new heaven and new earth after Satan is gone and sinful man has been either expelled or restored, depending on the choice of the individual.
Last edited:
DandyAndy
Active Member
If God did it now, He would be cutting off the opportunity for some 15 year old kid that is going to accept Christ at age 38 to be eternally saved and He would not even have the chance to create the woman 9 generations from now that will become a Christian and love and serve people so much in her life that hundreds of people will come to Christ as a result of her obedience and humility.
God has foresight which is a part of omniscience, which means He isn't going to cut off someones opportunity to be eternally saved. God is more concerned about eternity than momentary, temporal life - that doesn't mean He isn't concerned with suffering here and now, He is, but He has His priorities right and understands that 80 years is a single stitch in the tapestry of eternity.
If god is omnicient, he already knows if that 15 year old will eventually accept christ. He doesn't have to wait to find out.
DandyAndy
Active Member
Which is why He has to wait. If He overrides the 15 year olds choice, the 15 year old no longer has free will - especially since the boy doesn't even understand God at 15 or actually dislikes God at 15.
Since we know I am going to die eventually, would it be ok for someone to just go ahead and kill me now? Nope.
The boy has to make an active choice himself - God won't make that choice for him because there is no love there, only force.
Thats the point, if god is omnicient free will does not exist. He knows what evryone is going to be doing. And if he knows, why must he wait, he already knows the outcome.
No, it wouldn't be ok for someone to kill you now, but my answer has nothing to do with the fact that we all eventually die. If this is the one and only life we know that we have, every moment is significant. However, if you believe there is some afterlife, the person who killed you did you a favor. I mean whats 80 years compaired to an eternity afterwards?
I never said god makes the choice for the boy, but he knows what path the boy will take. He's omnicient, remember?
DandyAndy
Active Member
You misunderstand the definition of omniscience. We have to be on the same page before we can have a discussion. Knowing something to be true does not make that thing true. That thing eventually being true is what makes it able to be known as true. God's knowledge of our actions does not mean that He made them to be so.
Free will. The person must make the choice. Again, God's knowledge of that choice does not mean that God made that choice - the individual will make it and must make it.
I only use that example to put your logic in a different context to show how I understand it.
So if God doesn't make the choice for the boy, then the boy does have free will, yes? You said earlier the boy has no free will.
Last edited:
If you are referring to say when a hawk kills a rabbit or a lighting storm starts a forrest fire and kills some trees or woodland creatures.... then yes I''m not terribly concerned. That's not evil.
There is one logical flaw with that statement. You're blaming God for mankind's sin, that is you're blaming God for sin, but sin is defined as action that opposes God. How can God oppose God?
Me Myself
Back to my username
He is omnipotent. Are you saying he can´t do that?
God can do anything but violate His own nature,for God is perfect anything against his nature is less then perfect.
Me Myself
Back to my username
...so.... not all mighty...
God can do anything and everything He desires. "all mighty" is a human term and nothing human will ever correctly describe God.
Me Myself
Back to my username
Good, then lets go back to the basic argument I proposed. As we all know, God knew that we will use our Free will to make damage so big that aparently is deserving of eternity in hell. Yet he still created us.
So he created us knowing full well that because of his act of creation evil will arise and so would sin.
And he did. And we do.
So, he created sin. If I leave a dog stray knowing full well it is going to bite someone, the bite is my fault.
Sin and every evil in the world is God´s fault. Man´s sin is 100% his fault because he did it, but it is at the same time 100% God´s fault. because he made the people that would sin knowing full well those people werre going to sin.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
if we had more wisdom, we would now where to build our cities, how to construct houses that dont fall down and when to get out of the path of an impending volcano, hurricane or tsunami.
its not that satan took it from us, its that we are not born with such knowledge. Adam and Eve were completely dependent on God for knowledge of such things...so when they alienated themselves from God, they were on their own and had to figure things out on their own too.
Yes he will.
Jesus showed that he has the power to calm the storms. In a world governed by God, we can be absolutely confident that we will be cared for physically, mentally and emotionally.
Micah 4:4 And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making [them] tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken [it]
No again you are trying to put God in opposition to himself. Which is absurd. Its like blaming the light bulb for the darkness.
But I understand your argument and it is but one of the many apparent paradoxes that arise when we attempt to understand a God who is infinatly greater then our understanding.
Me Myself
Back to my username
The lightbulb is neither omnipotent, nor the creator of whatever is turning it off o.o
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Logically inconsistent hypotheses cannot be true.
Looncall
Well-Known Member
It is still suffering. Your unconcern does you no credit. Indeed, it illustrates how religion atrophies compassion.