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The Problem of Suffering

sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
This thread title came into my head today.
Today I was suffering on my way up a notorious local climb on my bicycle. It was great.
I am someone who actively seeks out a certain hue of suffering.
I love the physical pain of exertion. I loved racing marathons and ultras. For most of my life I have sought out the pain that is to be found in sport. The suffering of a steep climb on a bicycle, the exertion of the boxing ring and the wall of pain that is the ultra marathon. The mental torture that accompanies extreme exertion. The misery of an exhausted body with hours of labour staked before it. The agony of failure and defeat that imbues victory with it's joy. Blisters, broken noses, sore muscles, breaths that sear.
I have always been drawn to them like a moth to a flame. And I am not alone.
What does that say about pain?
 
religion99

religion99

Active Member
PolyHedral said:
Nothing in the universe can possibly control infinite resources, though.
Click to expand...

I agree. I will go one step further and say that nobody in the universe can control anything else but its own self. Believing otherwise is the root cause of all the problems, I believe.
 
religion99

religion99

Active Member
stephenw said:
This thread title came into my head today.
Today I was suffering on my way up a notorious local climb on my bicycle. It was great.
I am someone who actively seeks out a certain hue of suffering.
I love the physical pain of exertion. I loved racing marathons and ultras. For most of my life I have sought out the pain that is to be found in sport. The suffering of a steep climb on a bicycle, the exertion of the boxing ring and the wall of pain that is the ultra marathon. The mental torture that accompanies extreme exertion. The misery of an exhausted body with hours of labour staked before it. The agony of failure and defeat that imbues victory with it's joy. Blisters, broken noses, sore muscles, breaths that sear.
I have always been drawn to them like a moth to a flame. And I am not alone.
What does that say about pain?
Click to expand...
Please go and die and then I'll believe you.
 
religion99

religion99

Active Member
stephenw said:
As it happens I almost died a few years ago.
But I don't see your point, might you explain?
Click to expand...

If you believe suffering is Joy, then Death is the greatest suffering and hence should be a cause for greatest Joy. Then , why don't you go for it RIGHT NOW?
 
sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
religion99 said:
If you believe suffering is Joy, then Death is the greatest suffering and hence should be a cause for greatest Joy. Then , why don't you go for it RIGHT NOW?
Click to expand...

Why do you say death is the greatest suffering?
I would see death as distinct from suffering. Death of others might be suffering, but then I reffered to 'a certain hue of suffering' above and I would see death of others as of a different hue again.
Of course perhaps you are just advising me to ff... go away and die :D
 
victormeldrew

victormeldrew

Member
sandy whitelinger said:
As I keep asking, what is the "problem" with suffering?
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Use your own sense of right and wrong. If you think that it is wrong for a gunman to kill students at a summer camp, you have an understanding of moral rectitude. If you believe in an all-powerful God, the washing away of thousands of people in a tsunami should trouble you. Do the same rules not apply? Is this not also an immoral act?
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Meow Mix said:
Sandy Whitelinger,

I tried to respond to you earlier today and lo and behold, at that moment, my internet was shut off for non-payment. (Yeah, the girl and I are pretty tight on cash right now!)

Luckily, I saved my response on a temporary .txt file, so as soon as I restore my connection tomorrow I'll post it.

Essentially, the point is that "benevolence" is antagonistic to "malevolence" and malevolence incorporates causing and allowing suffering. Whether or not suffering is "good" or "bad" or "neutral" is entirely irrelevant to the contradiction.
Click to expand...
My definitions of malevolent point to causing harm or evil. I'm asking why allowing or causing suffering causes harm or evil which make it malevolent.

But if this futhers the discussion faster, benevolence is not God's only attribute as it it clear that there are times when He causes harm, ie. the flood.
 
M

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
sandy whitelinger said:
My definitions of malevolent point to causing harm or evil. I'm asking why allowing or causing suffering causes harm or evil which make it malevolent.

But if this futhers the discussion faster, benevolence is not God's only attribute as it it clear that there are times when He causes harm, ie. the flood.
Click to expand...

Hi Sandy, sorry that I still haven't posted. I had a really rough weekend and the saved response I have is on my computer at home. It may not be necessary, though, if I just respond here.

Cuasing or allowing harm is what malevolence means by definition -- at least, gratuitous harm (that isn't necessary for some greater good).

If God is not omnibenevolent as you say, then there is no issue with the Problem of Evil -- though I wonder why anyone would worship a being of that magnitude that's ever malevolent; it seems kind of petty to me.

Given the sheer amount and magnitude of suffering in the world that needn't be there (i.e., the amount of suffering that could be prevented by an omnipotent/omniscient being) the amount of malevolence that can be attributed at least in part to God is staggering -- assuming God is at least omnipotent/omniscient and the creator. That seems to sound more demonic than godly/good to me.

That doesn't mean such a being doesn't exist: just means it would be contradictory to call such a being omnibenevolent, or even mostly benevolent, or to a more vague extent "good."
 
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S

sarnath

Member
Suffering is really the gap between expectation and reality; its root lies in the incompleteness of our understanding of reality, i.e. our ignorance!
 
Looncall

Looncall

Well-Known Member
sarnath said:
Suffering is really the gap between expectation and reality; its root lies in the incompleteness of our understanding of reality, i.e. our ignorance!
Click to expand...

Tell that to the animals being devoured alive right now.

I despise this sort of vapid posturing.
 
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