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The Problem with Christian Music

Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Altfish said:
Trouble is, good music is rough, ready, nasty - all things Christianity isn't.
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Good music doesn't have to be rough. Good music, like good art in general, can be many things and come from many sources of inspiration.
Cacotopia said:
I have yet to see an atheist preacher or someone knocking on my door telling me about science.
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*knocks on door* Excuse me, sir. Have you a moment to discuss science, how it relates to your life, and your...uhh....energy thingies that aren't destroyed but transferred?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Shadow Wolf said:
Good music doesn't have to be rough. Good music, like good art in general, can be many things and come from many sources of inspiration
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I could be wrong, but I took his meaning as “visceral.” Good music is always visceral.
 
Dell

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
I've always wondered about the dividing line between worship and what is entertainment..

Has God ever said what he likes or doesn't like? Todays Christian music seems to appeal to the masses more than a Deity jealous of worship.

Does the spirit of the music matter in a church service?, like does it belong in a church if it's not "worship" but geared to sell cd's after the service?

Does it matter if the band members are not believers? Is that the same as preacher who doesn't believe what he is preaching?

One observation in my past, I've seen several major church splits over music than any by reason of doctrine or standard changes of the congregation.
 
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BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Cacotopia said:
Why are you here then, if you want a debate group to be exclusionary. If atheists weren't in this group I bet you would be arguing against people of other nontheistic disagreeing with you, and whether or not they should be allowed in the religious forums. You don't want to find a common ground, you want your way no matter the cost, no matter who it harms or who it excludes.
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I don't want an exclusionary group. I want you to admit you've been called out--you accused Christians of the kind of judging and advocacy YOU are doing here.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Christianity and religion aren't the same, interchangeable, or synonyms. And since you apparently neglected to read the rules and TOS that you agreed to in order to join this site, just you know preaching here is against the rules.

No, it's because they are being rude, and I tend to save kindness for those who deserve it and have shown it.

Actually, I am, but the reasons you stated are entirely wrong.

As Skwim doesn't have a religious affiliation or personal deity, I'm going to guess he too catches flak from Christians who insist he's the one who needs to change, with many of them being rude about it.

1) They can (but not here), but they need to all, universally, learn how to move on after someone says no and respect those who say no.
2) That is illegal and unconstitutional, and by keeping religion out we maximize religious freedom the most for all.
3) According to Paul (1 Corinthians 5:11) you are supposed to keep to yourself. Now, of course that is the exact opposite of what Jesus did, so it's up to you to chose between Jesus and Paul. As for the rest of the world, most people don't care so long as you aren't being a jerk and dominate conversation with religion and damnation.

1) Preaching isn't allowed here, and there are no atheist preachers.
2) Nope. Making "no laws that respect the establishment of religion" is pretty broad and is explicitly secular.
3) It's pretty hard to keep to yourself when there aren't many of you. And if you pay attention, religions like Christianity and Islam fall under criticism far more frequently than those such as Buddhism. So this "religionists" thingy doesn't work.
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I said "where people preach" not "where I preach"--you're preaching at me your gospel of atheism as well as proselytizing a false Christianity. You actually quotes 1 Cor 5 where Paul says to avoid BROTHERS who sin because you don't want Christians keeping you company. If you don't want me keeping you company, leave the forums.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
Personally, I don't listen to Christian music so I have no opinion of it. However, I happened on this video by chance and thought the Christians here might be interested in taking a look.


As pointed out, it lacks creativity. In fact, other than a difference in the lyrics, it doesn't seem one wit different from secular music, and maybe this is done on purpose. Both seem to lack an astounding amount of originality. So, excluding the differences in lyrics, perhaps a better title here would be The Problem with Today's Popular Music. :shrug:

Give a listen and let me know what you think.



.​
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
Yes, I believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but not the only Messiah.
Yes, the song has the power of God in it since God conferred power upon Jesus.
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What is the Baha'i faith?
Also, the Baha'i faith teaches a sort of works-based salvation. The Baha'i faith is not much different from Islam in its core teachings about how to be saved except that, for the Baha'i, little is said about the afterlife. This earthly life is to be filled with good works counterbalancing one's evil deeds and showing one's self deserving of ultimate deliverance. Sin is not paid for or dissolved; rather, it is excused by a presumably benevolent God. Man does not have a significant relationship with God. In fact, Baha’is teach that there is no personality in God's essence, but only in His manifestations. Thus, God does not submit easily to a relationship with man. Accordingly, the Christian doctrine of grace is reinterpreted so that "grace" means "God's kind allowance for man to have the opportunity to earn deliverance." Built into this doctrine is a denial of Christ's sacrificial atonement and a minimization of sin.

The Christian view of salvation is very different. Sin is understood as being of eternal and infinite consequence since it is a universal crime against an infinitely perfect God (Romans 3:10, 23). Likewise, sin is so great that it deserves a life (blood) sacrifice and incurs eternal punishment in the afterlife. But Christ pays the price that all owe, dying as an innocent sacrifice for a guilty humanity. Because man cannot do anything to unblemish himself or to deserve eternal reward, he either must die for his own sins or believe that Christ graciously died in his place (Isaiah 53; Romans 5:8). Thus, salvation is either by God's grace through man's faith or there is no eternal salvation.
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Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Jesus died for our sins. there arent other messiahs.
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I do not believe that the only purpose of a Messiah is to save us from our sins. That was the mission of Jesus but that is not the mission of the Messiah described in the Old Testament.

I do not believe original sin was inherited from Adam and Eve. I believe we are born good but that we have two natures, a lower material nature (sinful nature) and a higher spiritual nature:

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60​

So what Jesus did was save us from our sinful nature:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125​
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
What is the Baha'i faith?
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That is not an accurate depiction of the Baha’i Faith. Works are not all that is important. Faith is also very important. Deeds are secondary to recognition of Baha’u’llah so in that sense it is no different than Christianity wherein recognition of Jesus and belief in Him is necessary for eternal life.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331​

“For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133​

Also, a lot is said about the afterlife in The Baha’i Faith, a lot more than the Bible says about it. We have a much better idea of what will happen after we die, and the entire purpose of life in this world is to prepare for the afterlife.

Also, the Baha’i Faith does not teach that there is no personality in God's essence, but only in His Manifestations. Here is what we teach:

Personal God

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Cacotopia said:
Everything? It doesn't seem different from the mainstream music industry, I mean the lyrics are more banal for sure.
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I don't think you're going to find too many Christian songs that sounds like the Rolling Stones.

The closest talent was Amy Grant but even she went mainstream.

I think Christian music has the same issues as modern country music. It just has for the most part, a very cheesy and canned quality about it.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I do not believe that the only purpose of a Messiah is to save us from our sins. That was the mission of Jesus but that is not the mission of the Messiah described in the Old Testament.

I do not believe original sin was inherited from Adam and Eve. I believe we are born good but that we have two natures, a lower material nature (sinful nature) and a higher spiritual nature:

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60​

So what Jesus did was save us from our sinful nature:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125​
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The other purpose of the Messiah was that we could come before God.
 
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