The problem with religious morality...

[Falvlun]

I think the OP is more about entrenched power structures than "religious morality".
Those in entrenched positions of power will do anything to maintain and exploit that power.

Look at secular institutions like Wall Street and Congress. Good Ol'Boys protect each other at the expense of the victimized. I blame the monkeysphere.

wa:do

This right here.

The problem isn't so much with the idea of religious morality, as it is with its implementation by very humans structures. Some religions aren't just bastions of religious insights any more-- they are citadels of control and power. And this can cause them to make some questionable judgements.

 

[TheKnight]

If it results in a moral system that says:
It is right to do anything, no matter how much suffering it causes, no matter how unjust, if I believe that God commands it, then yes, it is inherently problematic.

Suffering is a part of our existence, and there is none to say what is just but the true Judge of all creation.

However, some have worse results than others. People take actions based on their beliefs.

A motivator cannot produce results, only people can. I would never blame an idea for something a person has done. That, my friend, is what I would call illogical. People are responsible for their actions, regardless of who or what else motivated them to act in that manner.

 

[Autodidact]

Suffering is a part of our existence, and there is none to say what is just but the true Judge of all creation.

Too bad he doesn't let us know His views, so we're left to muddle through on our own as best we can.

So if you're convicted of a crime you did not commit, and sentenced to life in prison, you cannot see that as unjust? And of course, suffering is part of our existence, so no reason why not.

A motivator cannot produce results, only people can. I would never blame an idea for something a person has done. That, my friend, is what I would call illogical. People are responsible for their actions, regardless of who or what else motivated them to act in that manner.

People have beliefs, which affect their actions. People are responsible for their actions, including those based on false beliefs, so it's morally incumbent on us to do our best to make sure are beliefs are correct.

If people believe that God commanded them to kill an Amalekite baby, they will do so. If people believe that God will reward them in eternal paradise for destroying 3000 innocent Americans, they will do so. Beliefs matter.

 

[TheKnight]

Too bad he doesn't let us know His views, so we're left to muddle through on our own as best we can.

I think He makes His views clear enough. We can discover them if we wish.

So if you're convicted of a crime you did not commit, and sentenced to life in prison, you cannot see that as unjust?

I would feel as if I was treated unfairly.

People have beliefs, which affect their actions. People are responsible for their actions, including those based on false beliefs, so it's morally incumbent on us to do our best to make sure are beliefs are correct.

If people believe that God commanded them to kill an Amalekite baby, they will do so. If people believe that God will reward them in eternal paradise for destroying 3000 innocent Americans, they will do so. Beliefs matter.

Of course belief is important, but the best way to influence a person's beliefs are through actions. You do not turn someone to the right path by telling them about it, you turn them by walking the path yourself.

We should only be concerned with making our own beliefs correct and walking the path that coincides with correct belief. If we do so, we are bound to influence others to do the same.

The most convincing missionaries are not the most determined and bothersome with their spouting of rhetoric. The most convincing are the ones who act in accordance with what they believe. They don't tell you that they have an inner peace, you just know from being around them and watching them behave.

 

[waitasec]

I
Of course belief is important, but the best way to influence a person's beliefs are through actions. You do not turn someone to the right path by telling them about it, you turn them by walking the path yourself.

you don't need to believe in god in order to be moral. period
belief in god can and has given people justification for immoral actions...

 

[TheKnight]

you don't need to believe in god in order to be moral.

I never said you did.

belief in god can and has given people justification for immoral actions...

I've already agreed to this. Belief in God is a powerful motivator for both good and bad. Just like sex, money, and other drives we have. In this regard belief in a deity is not special.

 

[waitasec]

I never said you did.

never said you didn't...

I've already agreed to this. Belief in God is a powerful motivator for both good and bad. Just like sex, money, and other drives we have. In this regard belief in a deity is not special.

which isn't a good argument for a belief in god...

 

[Autodidact]

I think He makes His views clear enough. We can discover them if we wish.

Yes, and the 99.99% of humanity who thinks they are different from what you think are just...mistaken?

 

[TheKnight]

which isn't a good argument for a belief in god...

It's not an argument at ALL for belief in God.

Yes, and the 99.99% of humanity who thinks they are different from what you think are just...mistaken?

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

 

[Skeptisch]

I think He makes His views clear enough. We can discover them if we wish.

Could you give us examples how he (God) makes himself clear enough? And since the OP is about religious morality maybe you could also give us your take on this:

1. Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
2. God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7
3. Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14
4. God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
5. Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
6. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
7. "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5

 

[TheKnight]

Could you give us examples how he (God) makes himself clear enough?

Well, He gave the Torah. With study and time we can learn from the Torah which behavior we should or should not have in order to fulfill the goals that the Torah teaches as being the reasons for the behaviors laid out.

And since the OP is about religious morality maybe you could also give us your take on this

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you're asking of me with all of these verses. Perhaps you could elaborate?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The problem with religious morality is that it often causes people to care about the wrong things, leading them to make choices that needlessly perpetuate human suffering.

Consider the Catholic Church: This is an institution that excommunicates women who want to become priests, but it does not excommunicate male priests who rape children. The Church is more concerned about stopping contraception than stopping genocide. It is more worried about gay marriage than about nuclear proliferation. When we realize that morality relates to questions of human and animal well-being, we can see that the Catholic Church is as confused about morality as it is about cosmology. It is not offering an alternative moral framework; it is offering a false one.
Neuroscientist Sam Harris in “The Moral Landscape” (How Science Can Determine Human Values)

The problem that you are describing is true, but it seems, that the problem is with clergy, and not the foundation of religion itself.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

You believe that God has communicated certain things to us. 99.9% of humanity believes He has communicated quite different things. You believe that God has been clear in His communication. What accounts for everyone else being wrong about what He wants us to know, and you being right?

 

[Autodidact]

How about the poor guy who reached out to steady the Ark of the Covenant, and got, IIRC, killed for his trouble?

 

[Skeptisch]

About religious morality:

How come the most atheistic countries on earth, countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the Nederland rate consistently better than religious nations on measures like life expectancy, infant mortality, crime, literacy, GDP, child welfare, economic competitiveness, gender equality, health care, investments in education, rates of university enrolment, internet access, environmental protection, lack of corruption, political stability, and charity to poorer nations, etc.?

 

[Autodidact]

About religious morality:

How come the most atheistic countries on earth, countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the Nederland rate consistently better than religious nations on measures like life expectancy, infant mortality, crime, literacy, GDP, child welfare, economic competitiveness, gender equality, health care, investments in education, rates of university enrolment, internet access, environmental protection, lack of corruption, political stability, and charity to poorer nations, etc.?

I would say that religious morality tends to focus less on compassion for suffering, and more on purity taboos. So e.g. the Yemeni recipient of Norwegian assistance would criticize Norway's low marriage rate, use of alcohol and other drugs, tolerance for nudity and depictions of nearly naked people and so forth, and see it as extremely immoral. This does not prevent the former from immigrating to the latter in droves, and then trying to change it to make it more like the homes they fled. Go figure.

 

[Skeptisch]

I would say that religious morality tends to focus less on compassion for suffering, and more on purity taboos.

Well said. Also religious morality tends to focus on an unnatural, supernatural deity for whose existence there is no (scientific) evidence what so ever.
Again, go figure!

 

[waitasec]

About religious morality:

How come the most atheistic countries on earth, countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the Nederland rate consistently better than religious nations on measures like life expectancy, infant mortality, crime, literacy, GDP, child welfare, economic competitiveness, gender equality, health care, investments in education, rates of university enrolment, internet access, environmental protection, lack of corruption, political stability, and charity to poorer nations, etc.?

I would say that religious morality tends to focus less on compassion for suffering, and more on purity taboos. So e.g. the Yemeni recipient of Norwegian assistance would criticize Norway's low marriage rate, use of alcohol and other drugs, tolerance for nudity and depictions of nearly naked people and so forth, and see it as extremely immoral. This does not prevent the former from immigrating to the latter in droves, and then trying to change it to make it more like the homes they fled. Go figure.

Well said. Also religious morality tends to focus on an unnatural, supernatural deity for whose existence there is no (scientific) evidence what so ever.
Again, go figure!

and there it is...

 

[TheKnight]

What accounts for everyone else being wrong about what He wants us to know, and you being right?

Never said I was right and everyone else was wrong. Simply that I feel He has made His expectations clear. With study, anyone can learn them.

rate consistently better than religious nations

What religious nations?

 

[Skeptisch]

By CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS - AA CONFERENCE, VIA PHARYNGULA
Added: Friday, 22 April 2011 at 2:08 PM

“Dear fellow-unbelievers,
Nothing would have kept me from joining you except the loss of my voice (at least my speaking voice) which in turn is due to a long argument I am currently having with the specter of death. Nobody ever wins this argument, though there are some solid points to be made while the discussion goes on. I have found, as the enemy becomes more familiar, that all the special pleading for salvation, redemption and supernatural deliverance appears even more hollow and artificial to me than it did before. I hope to help defend and pass on the lessons of this for many years to come, but for now I have found my trust better placed in two things: the skill and principle of advanced medical science, and the comradeship of innumerable friends and family, all of them immune to the false consolations of religion. It is these forces among others which will speed the day when humanity emancipates itself from the mind-forged manacles of servility and superstition. It is our innate solidarity, and not some despotism of the sky, which is the source of our morality and our sense of decency.”
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/618232-message-to-american-atheists