The problem with using logic and reason as the foundation of faith in God

[punkdbass]

The moment someone convinces you that your faith is illogical or unreasonable when compared to a different philosophy, the pillars/foundation of your faith will be removed and all will come crashing down.

I have been told by several theists, that you can't use logic or reason to arrive at God.. I think I finally understand what they mean. If the foundation of your faith is based on logic or reason, then the moment someone convinces you that there is a more logical or reasonable alternative to your beliefs, your "faith" will quickly crumble away. I'm not saying that God is illogical or unreasonable, but I think in order to have a strong theology, the foundation of your faith must be built on experience rather than logic and reason.

I'm proposing that all theists should root the foundation of their faith in experience. Both theists and atheists can sit and contemplate just how reasonable or logical God is -- but ultimately I think you need to jump in and give God a chance.. and then evaluate the experiences you have and determine for yourself if you think there is anything real or if a higher power can be found within them. And if so, then I think the foundation of your faith should be built upon such experiences, in order to have a strong theology.

You should most definitely use logic and reason to build your theology, to analyze, question, and develop your beliefs.. but I think in order to have a strong theology one must build its foundation upon experiences. Thoughts?

 

[zenzero]

Friend punkdbass,

The problem with using logic and reason as the foundation of faith in God

Mind is thoughts/vibration/delusions/illusions/etc.

No-Mind is no-thoughts/Stillness/freedom
Meaning only when the mind that one uses to reach God when it [mind] in itself is the root of the problem between God and the individual then then surely using the mind for logic or reasoning will be null and void.

Love & rgds

 

[JacobEzra.]

The path to finding God is one of struggle. We all have to make our own way. And I think a lot go off of faith due to experience rather then logic.

 

[Sunstone]

Do you think logic and reason should inform and qualify experience. For instance, suppose I have an experience that appears to me on the surface to be an experience of god. Should I leave it at that, or should I employ logic and reason to interpret it at some point?

 

[punkdbass]

The path to finding God is one of struggle. We all have to make our own way. And I think a lot go off of faith due to experience rather then logic.

I agree completely. And I do think that a majority of people base the foundation of their faith on experience rather than logic/reason. I have grown a lot lately and my faith has gotten much stronger, so I felt the need to make this thread to possibly help other super analytical, critical, logical, rational, overthinking type of people(like myself) in their struggles with the idea of God.

 

[punkdbass]

Do you think logic and reason should inform and qualify experience. For instance, suppose I have an experience that appears to me on the surface to be an experience of god. Should I leave it at that, or should I employ logic and reason to interpret it at some point?

As I said in my OP, one needs to evaluate such experiences and determine for themselves whether or not something real or a higher power can be found within them. So yes, you definitely should analyze and question such experiences. I think that to be a good theist you must use logic and reason to analyze, develop, and question your beliefs.. as I said in my OP. Nothing should be blind.

I think I'm ganna go to sleep, but I will expand on this post tomorrow if you'd like.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I agree completely. And I do think that a majority of people base the foundation of their faith on experience rather than logic/reason. I have grown a lot lately and my faith has gotten much stronger, so I felt the need to make this thread to possibly help other super analytical, critical, logical, rational, overthinking type of people(like myself) in their struggles with the idea of God.

Maybe you can help me. Though I am not sure it comes from logic, but I am having trouble believing in a personal God.

Like, I was talking to an orthodox friend about God. And how in the Tanakh God is revealed. He seems very apart of the world. He gives great signs of wonder. He sends prophets to help. Iv been thinking of how he lead Am Israel from Egypt with great streangth. He consumes Eliyahu's sacrifice in front of the false prophets. And yet now, at times he seems to be a bit silent.

I mean, he seems to answer prayers at times o. Even though they may not be exactly kosher. But still I feel a bit critical. Especially when reading the scripture. Is it possible they exagerated? Or did he leave us in the toy aisle by accident, and like lost children we have to wonder, lookingfor him in this giant store called life?

 

[1137]

I disagree. Experience is important, but an experience is only valid to those who have them. Besides that, unless you are talking mystical experience here, there is too much outside influence in experience. Your faith should be founded on logic precisely because, if illogical, it comes crashing down. Unless you believe out of comfort, rather than the quest for truth (which many do).

 

[Willamena]

The path to finding God is one of struggle. We all have to make our own way. And I think a lot go off of faith due to experience rather then logic.

If you have to struggle with a path, then you're doing it wrong. Or maybe it just isn't your path.

 

[Vultar]

Experience and logic go hand in hand. You should never believe things that don't have at least a bit of logic associated with them.

I've recently started reading the scriptures from the different religions and really can't even fathom how anyone can follow such imaginative dribble with no logic whatsoever to it. Not to mention in one place they say "do not kill" and a few chapters later, god is ordering the death of all men, women and innocent children in over 60 cities. That is just not logical (not to mention maybe just a wee bit evil)

Who are you people really following??

 

[Valjean]

A conclusion arrived at by logic and reason would appear to violate the definition of faith. It might better be termed knowledge.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

If you have to struggle with a path, then you're doing it wrong. Or maybe it just isn't your path.

I disagree, in part at least. A certain amount of struggle is required in the path to God.

On the other hand, struggling too much is not helpful. Learning the difference between the positive and the negative struggle take experience and practice, but it is vital to any path of faith. It is that struggle, where we lay our own needs, wants and desires down and let go of them, that we grow to understand God.

 

[bezuidenhout]

I don't want to sound mean, I just think that rejecting logic and evidence is somewhat cowardly. If your beliefs were absolutely true, then logic would corroborate them, not destroy them. You are just burying your head in the sand, beacause you are afraid to admit that your view might be skewed. I'm sorry, but you might want to evaluate your subjective experiences.

 

[Caladan]

Do you believe that atheism is reached or 'practiced' without experience?
the world view of people tends to be directly inspired from their experience and their ability to think about life.

 

[JacobEzra.]

If you have to struggle with a path, then you're doing it wrong. Or maybe it just isn't your path.

Yeah, because believing in a God is just oh soo easy to do! Right.

 

[punkdbass]

If you have to struggle with a path, then you're doing it wrong. Or maybe it just isn't your path.

Definitely disagree. In the Bible, Jacob wrestles with God.. and then is renamed "Israel" which means "He who struggles with God"

So in the path of Judaism, a Jew is defined, by one who struggles with God. Like I said in my OP, one should constantly analyze, question, and develop their beliefs. I think when it comes to faith, struggle is a highly necessary thing in order to strengthen one's faith as Jacob did.

"A faith unquestioned, is no faith at all." Honestly, I feel sorry for those who don't struggle or question their faith, for they are missing out on so much that can be learned, and ultimately arriving at a stronger faith.

Do you believe that atheism is reached or 'practiced' without experience?
the world view of people tends to be directly inspired from their experience and their ability to think about life.

I agree with you, in fact I was going to originally write something in my OP about how I feel like atheists should do the same. My main point is that we can't just sit and use logic, reason, philosophy to try and arrive at God, or perhaps even a lack there of, rather we need to simply go out and experience life - and determine for ourselves whether or not a higher power can be found within these experiences.

 

[Vultar]

"A faith unquestioned, is no faith at all." Honestly, I feel sorry for those who don't struggle or question their faith, for they are missing out on so much that can be learned, and ultimately arriving at a stronger faith.

Some of us don't need to question our faith at all as we have experienced more then you ever can while you are alive. After you've died a few times, then we can talk on an even level

 

[beerisit]

Perhaps one should ask WHY? Why would an all powerful creator have need of bestowing eternal life on creatures he created mortal? And why would he create rules to abide by for such largesse? Why would he care? Why didn't he create them that way in the first place? Why would he conduct such a pointless experiment, when he already knew the result?

 

[Thief]

I disagree. Experience is important, but an experience is only valid to those who have them. Besides that, unless you are talking mystical experience here, there is too much outside influence in experience. Your faith should be founded on logic precisely because, if illogical, it comes crashing down. Unless you believe out of comfort, rather than the quest for truth (which many do).

This was it^.

Logic is not what most people think it is.
There's a thread around here somewhere, about that.

Faith is an item that require no proving...no evidence to be found.

You just have to think about it.

Of course, your logic is the tool.
If it happens to be dull, it won't cut well.

 

[Vultar]

Perhaps one should ask WHY? Why would an all powerful creator have need of bestowing eternal life on creatures he created mortal? And why would he create rules to abide by for such largesse? Why would he care? Why didn't he create them that way in the first place? Why would he conduct such a pointless experiment, when he already knew the result?

Because there isn't a creator.... therefore trying to apply logic to random events will never work. There is an afterlife due to creatures generating energy and this energy going elsewhere once the host creature dies. Spirit energy if you will....