The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[nazz]

But either way, what I posted still applies, especially when one negates the magnitude of what's involved. The Law is really the most central point of both Torah and Tanakh, and for one to deny its authenticity very much renders the texts inoperable as far as any reliability is concerned. Without the teachings of the Law, both become some nice stories with nothing much to become of them.

We call the first five books "Torah", meaning Law (actually "Teachings" is a better translation), for a reason. Along with the Covenant that, along with Torah,are believed to be from God, this is really what the "O.T." is about. Get rid of that, nothing much that's useful is left.

As far as "accurate version" is concerned, yes there can be some inaccuracies involved (most of us don't believe in scriptural inerrancy), but so many of the Laws are repeated through both Torah and Tanakh, although not all are. But what he's saying goes well beyond that there can be some inaccuracies.

Since I take a Gnostic approach to the Bible this is really a non-issue for me.

 

[roger1440]

The new is what Jesus Christ says: "as I have loved you". The Gospel says so:

" A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:34)

Jesus loved us by giving his life for us to teach us the true commandments of God.

The “new commandment” is Jesus is an example set as a model, a paradigm. The next line says,” As I have loved you”. The key word is “as”. The author of the Gospel of John is comparing love to Jesus. The newness of the commandment is not love; the newness comes from the example. This “new commandment” is simply a rewording of an existing commandment. The key to understanding the Gospel of John lies in understanding two key terms, the “I am” verses and the “truth” verses. Jesus is the “truth” in 20 verses.

 

[metis]

Since I take a Gnostic approach to the Bible this is really a non-issue for me.

Shhhhhh! And my approach is to view it all as allegory. :run:

 

[nazz]

Shhhhhh! And my approach is to view it all as allegory. :run:

Then why not accept there is contradiction?

 

[Porque77]

the scribes wrote more than just copies of scripture that were eventually canonized, and it appears that you are not at all familiar with the commentary system that was being used that jesus also contributed to. Also it also appears that you are unaware of the fact that there were roughly around 2000 books that were not incorporated into our canon, and there's a good chance that jeremiah may have either been referring to them and/or some of the commentaries.

i don't think so. His wording is quite clear. He is not saying the people have the law but there are other inaccurate books. He's saying the don't have an accurate version of the law period.

Hello friends. What Jeremiah says is this:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

You can see that Jeremiah says that God's Law was changed by the scribes.

And not only the prophet Jeremiah says that the Law was changed, but other prophets also warn us of this:

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary; they have falsified the law". (Zephaniah 3:4)

 

[Porque77]

1 - Jesus did not commanded to preach the Old Testament laws. Jesus Christ commanded preach only the Gospel to all people:

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned". (Mark 16:15-16)

2 - The True Law of God is from always to everlasting, not expired. The laws expired are the Old Testament laws that Jesus Christ abolished (Matthew 5:31-48 and the entire context of the Gospel).

3 - The first five books are called "law of Moses", but the true Law that God gave to Moses is the Law that Jesus taught us in the Gospel, because Jesus tells us this is the Law and the Prophets:

"all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets". (Matthew 7:12)

4 - Many of the 613 commandments of the Old Testament were abolished by Jesus Christ, and Christians are not under those orders of the Old Testament, because many of them were only precepts of men.

True Law of God taught by Jesus Christ tells us so:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.

 

[metis]

Then why not accept there is contradiction?

Because it's not always possible to tell with certainty that there's not some sort of thread that may connect them that may make sense. Theologians tend to use the word "variation" rather than "contradiction", and I've sorta got use to that as habit. Do I really believe there are "contradictions" found within? Yes.

 

[metis]

Hello friends. What Jeremiah says is this:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

You can see that Jeremiah says that God's Law was changed by the scribes.

And not only the prophet Jeremiah says that the Law was changed, but other prophets also warn us of this:

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary; they have falsified the law". (Zephaniah 3:4)

Again, you miss the point of what's going on, namely that these scribes were writing more than just that which is found in Torah, and part of this problem was the eventual translation of the Torah into what became the Greek Septuagint, which was the scriptures that the early church used. When we canonized Torah, we did so not from that text that contained translation problems but from the Jerusalem text instead.

Also, the point above become illogical in another way, namely that the prophets you cite are assuming there are real Torahs to be found, so why would you jump to the conclusion that the Torahs we now have are somehow bogus?

 

[metis]

True Law of God taught by Jesus Christ tells us so:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12).

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law.

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22.

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.

Every single Law that you cite above is found in Torah.

 

[nazz]

Also, the point above become illogical in another way, namely that the prophets you cite are assuming there are real Torahs to be found, so why would you jump to the conclusion that the Torahs we now have are somehow bogus?

Are you thinking this because you think that is the only way they could distinguish between the true and the false law? Because I think it could just be a matter of personal revelation to them. In any event what we have today that is called the Torah is definitely not that "true Torah" at least from the view of Jeremiah who points out that God never commanded sacrifice be made to him:

Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat.For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices." [Jer 7:21-22]

 

[metis]

Are you thinking this because you think that is the only way they could distinguish between the true and the false law? Because I think it could just be a matter of personal revelation to them. In any event what we have today that is called the Torah is definitely not that "true Torah" at least from the view of Jeremiah who points out that God never commanded sacrifice be made to him:

Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat.For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices." [Jer 7:21-22]

There are two things at stake with the above, and one of them is that God is angry because the sacrifices being offered are to other gods, plus another issue being mentioned is that the items sacrificed should be eaten, which they were as mandated by Torah at Sinai. We also need to remember that the specific Laws dealing with sacrifice weren't given until Sinai, although we performed sacrifices prior to that.

If there's doubt about where the Laws on sacrifices come from, check out the several pages of verses that can be found here, which number 380 (although a few may pertain to other kids of sacrifice as I don't have the time to go through every single one of them: Bible, Revised Standard Version

Now, I would suggest that if one believes all those verses are bogus, since they are found throughout Torah and Tanakh, then what's left?

 

[nazz]

There are two things at stake with the above, and one of them is that God is angry because the sacrifices being offered are to other gods, plus another issue being mentioned is that the items sacrificed should be eaten, which they were as mandated by Torah at Sinai. We also need to remember that the specific Laws dealing with sacrifice weren't given until Sinai, although we performed sacrifices prior to that.

If there's doubt about where the Laws on sacrifices come from, check out the several pages of verses that can be found here, which number 380 (although a few may pertain to other kids of sacrifice as I don't have the time to go through every single one of them: Bible, Revised Standard Version

Now, I would suggest that if one believes all those verses are bogus, since they are found throughout Torah and Tanakh, then what's left?

A lot of good stuff

I don't buy the arguments given to explain that verse and similar ones away. I think the sacrificial system was a priestly conspiracy.

 

[metis]

A lot of good stuff

I don't buy the arguments given to explain that verse and similar ones away. I think the sacrificial system was a priestly conspiracy.

I doubt that very much since the priestly class would have had to have some sort of precedence for it. IOW, how could they possibly justify starting this as a practice out of the clear-blue sky? Certainly it would be in their best interest to see it continue, however.

Instead, we should remember that sacrifices were commonplace within the Sumerian culture whereas so many of our practices either originated or were influenced by, and I spent a week on Sumerian culture in my anthropology class whereas I covered quite a bit of their religious beliefs and practices. To me, I don't have much doubt that this is likely where our practice came from, but please don't tell my fellow Jews this, OK? :no:

 

[nazz]

I doubt that very much since the priestly class would have had to have some sort of precedence for it. IOW, how could they possibly justify starting this as a practice out of the clear-blue sky? Certainly it would be in their best interest to see it continue, however.

Instead, we should remember that sacrifices were commonplace within the Sumerian culture whereas so many of our practices either originated or were influenced by, and I spent a week on Sumerian culture in my anthropology class whereas I covered quite a bit of their religious beliefs and practices. To me, I don't have much doubt that this is likely where our practice came from, but please don't tell my fellow Jews this, OK? :no:

OK, it'll be our little secret

But seriously the fact that is was a standard part of ANE culture that makes it believable that the priesthood would tell the people that God told them to perform these sacrifices (that they obviously benefited greatly from) and the people just going along with the whole thing. Just as later the people hankered after having a king so they could be like other nations. Jeremiah being a priest himself might have caught on to the secret.

 

[Awoon]

A lot of good stuff

I don't buy the arguments given to explain that verse and similar ones away. I think the sacrificial system was a priestly conspiracy.

Interesting. Moses set up his family quit well, didn't he?

 

[metis]

OK, it'll be our little secret

But seriously the fact that is was a standard part of ANE culture that makes it believable that the priesthood would tell the people that God told them to perform these sacrifices (that they obviously benefited greatly from) and the people just going along with the whole thing. Just as later the people hankered after having a king so they could be like other nations. Jeremiah being a priest himself might have caught on to the secret.

I'm not that heavy into conspiracy theories, and I tend to lean in the direction that most of the priesthood and public actually believed that God told them to perform these sacrifices, and why wouldn't they since it even predates Abraham in that region.

About 15 years ago I was at the Mayan ruins down in Mexico, and saw the ball park where they played what we call LaCrosse, and it was the winning team that was sacrificed, not the losing team. IOW, people really believed in this.

Therefore, I have no problem with them believing that God told them to do this, and this practice was pretty much worldwide in scope, whereas our views nowadays would almost without a doubt have been in the minority back then.

 

[nazz]

I'm not that heavy into conspiracy theories, and I tend to lean in the direction that most of the priesthood and public actually believed that God told them to perform these sacrifices, and why wouldn't they since it even predates Abraham in that region.

About 15 years ago I was at the Mayan ruins down in Mexico, and saw the ball park where they played what we call LaCrosse, and it was the winning team that was sacrificed, not the losing team. IOW, people really believed in this.

Therefore, I have no problem with them believing that God told them to do this, and this practice was pretty much worldwide in scope, whereas our views nowadays would almost without a doubt have been in the minority back then.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they did not believe God told them all of this at some point. I'm just saying that Jeremiah disputes it goes back to the time of the Exodus. Who really knows but I like the idea of a deity who would oppose animal sacrifice.

 

[metis]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they did not believe God told them all of this at some point. I'm just saying that Jeremiah disputes it goes back to the time of the Exodus. Who really knows but I like the idea of a deity who would oppose animal sacrifice.

Are you a vegetarian?

Actually, that's sort of a serious question in that the animal was slaughtered according to kashrut Laws that would involve less pain to the animal than using most other techniques, plus the meat was mostly eaten, with leftovers given to the poor. If we compare this process to what most people do with the meat they eat, I will suggest that the Temple sacrifice system was probably more humane and less was wasteful.

 

[nazz]

Are you a vegetarian?

(Sorry, I've been off line unavoidably for a few days)

I have been vegetarian several times in my life but now I just love meat too much! But I don't eat as much of it as the average person and I try to buy it from sources that treat the animals as best as they can.

Actually, that's sort of a serious question in that the animal was slaughtered according to kashrut Laws that would involve less pain to the animal than using most other techniques, plus the meat was mostly eaten, with leftovers given to the poor. If we compare this process to what most people do with the meat they eat, I will suggest that the Temple sacrifice system was probably more humane and less was wasteful.

Yes, I agree and back in my Nazorean days I made these same types of arguments. But mainly I am just pointing out I don't think these decrees were given by the God I recognize as God. Plus not all sacrifices were eaten.

 

[metis]

(Sorry, I've been off line unavoidably for a few days)

I hope everything is alright with you and your family.

Yes, I agree and back in my Nazorean days I made these same types of arguments. But mainly I am just pointing out I don't think these decrees were given by the God I recognize as God. Plus not all sacrifices were eaten.

HHDL had a statement that goes like this (paraphrased): if you sacrifice a cow, all you really have is a dead cow. [shhhhhh-- I tend to agree, but then what do I know?]