The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[Shermana]

You say that "you don't think the law causes slavery either", but the Old Testament law says some thing different.

Commanded God that men were slaves of other men?

The 10 Commandments of the Old Testament's laws, about slaves, also say:

"Thou shalt not desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field or his manslave or his maidslave, his ox or his *** or any thing that is thy neighbour's". (Deutoro. 5: 21).

This commandment is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel.



Jesus taught us the law that should be preserved, and this law is the law of the Gospel.

Jesus abolished the Old Testament many commands because those commands were not commandments of God.

What part of that CAUSES slavery exactly? A ruling on the existence of the slave-class does not say anything about causing slavery.

Also, I'd like to see what part of the Gospel you speak of that says Jesus says anything about slaves. In fact, he goes to heal a Centurion's slave. He doesn't rebuke him for having a slave. He condones his practice by healing what is his property.

I assume you don't go by Paul either, right? Because he also gave rulings to slaves, such as to be obedient and not grumble about their predicament.

 

[Porque77]

If I said, "obey all the signs and avoid hitting your neighbor, that is the rules of the road", do you think that this means you can ignore the rest of all other driving laws?

Not confuse the law of God with speed. You must do what Jesus commands, and so will not crash against the Law of God.

The Law of the Gospel is the true Law of God. And the Old Testament laws mandating that the men kill other men, are not true Law of God.

Except that he didn't abolish a single one. What he abolished was Pharisee misinterpretation of them.

This that you say is not true, because Jesus abolished many commandments written in the Old Testament. The Gospel says so:

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. Nevertheless I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of prostitution, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced, commits adultery" (Matthew 5:...)

The jews of that time wrote in the law of the Old Testament that could separated from women for many reasons when they tired of them, but Jesus abolished these commandments. These commandments were written into the Old Testament and Jesus Christ abolished them.

"Again you have heard that it was said by them of old not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. Nevertheless I tell you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for is the footstool of his feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because you can not do a single white or black hair. But let your ' Yes, yes, no, no, because what is more than these cometh of evil" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were accustomed to swear in many cases, and so wrote it in the laws of the Old Testament... The Lord abolished these precepts of the oaths.

The law of retaliation ("Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth") ABOLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were in the habit of applying the talionis law (law of revenge) in their judgments (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn... and so on.), And so they wrote it in the laws of the old Testament (Exodus 21:24-25). The Lord abolished this law of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" because it was a law that did not included forgiveness or mercy, then weren't God's Law, because what God likes is the mercy.


"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you...." (Matthew 5...)

The Jews, often beheaded or hanged his enemies, and not only to them, but then, as says the laws of the Old Testament, entered the conquered peoples and in many cases children and women were slaughtered... Jesus Christ abolished these Old Testament laws and commands us to love our enemies.

Other Old Testament laws abolished by Jesus Christ:

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be dead". (Leviticus 20:10)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she fornicate, dishonor his father; she shall be burnt with fire" (Leviticus 21:9)

That Is not what Jesus did with the adulterous woman in the Gospel Example:

"And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her? And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst. And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more". (Juan 8:3-12)

With this teaching, Jesus abolished the Old Testament commandments that ordered kill people for various reasons. So far we have collected some examples of Old Testament commandments that Jesus abolished, but the argument that Jesus had with the Jews because of the law, is much broader and at this discussion is devoted a large part of the Gospel. Jesus taught us the true law of God.

 

[Shermana]

The New Testament teaches nothing New

 

[CMike]

Not confuse the law of God with speed. You must do what Jesus commands, and so will not crash against the Law of God.

The Law of the Gospel is the true Law of God. And the Old Testament laws mandating that the men kill other men, are not true Law of God.

This that you say is not true, because Jesus abolished many commandments written in the Old Testament. The Gospel says so:

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. Nevertheless I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of prostitution, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced, commits adultery" (Matthew 5:...)

The jews of that time wrote in the law of the Old Testament that could separated from women for many reasons when they tired of them, but Jesus abolished these commandments. These commandments were written into the Old Testament and Jesus Christ abolished them.

"Again you have heard that it was said by them of old not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. Nevertheless I tell you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for is the footstool of his feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because you can not do a single white or black hair. But let your ' Yes, yes, no, no, because what is more than these cometh of evil" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were accustomed to swear in many cases, and so wrote it in the laws of the Old Testament... The Lord abolished these precepts of the oaths.

The law of retaliation ("Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth") ABOLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:...)


The Jews, often beheaded or hanged his enemies, and not only to them, but then, as says the laws of the Old Testament, entered the conquered peoples and in many cases children and women were slaughtered... Jesus Christ abolished these Old Testament laws and commands us to love our enemies.

Other Old Testament laws abolished by Jesus Christ:

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be dead". (Leviticus 20:10)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she fornicate, dishonor his father; she shall be burnt with fire" (Leviticus 21:9)

That Is not what Jesus did with the adulterous woman in the Gospel Example:

"And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her? And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst. And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more". (Juan 8:3-12)

With this teaching, Jesus abolished the Old Testament commandments that ordered kill people for various reasons. So far we have collected some examples of Old Testament commandments that Jesus abolished, but the argument that Jesus had with the Jews because of the law, is much broader and at this discussion is devoted a large part of the Gospel. Jesus taught us the true law of God.

You might find this interesting it's about Joseph Goebbels.

Joseph Goebbels | Jewish Virtual Library


Master propagandist of the Nazi regime and dictator of its cultural life for twelve years, Joseph Goebbels was born into a strict Catholic, working-class family from Rheydt, in the Rhineland, on 29 October 1897. He was educated at a Roman Catholic school and went on to study history and literature at the University of Heidelberg under Professor Friedrich Gundolf, a Jewish literary historian renowned as a Goethe scholar and a close disciple of the poet Stefan George.
Goebbels had been rejected for military service during World War I because of a crippled foot - the result of contracting polio as a child - and a sense of physical inadequacy tormented him for the rest of his life, reinforced by resentment of the reactions aroused by his diminutive frame, black hair and intellectual background. Bitterly conscious of his deformity and fearful of being regarded as a "bourgeois intellectual," Goebbels overcompensated for his lack of the physical virtues of the strong, healthy, blond, Nordic type by his ideological rectitude and radicalism once he joined the NSDAP in 1922.
The hostility to the intellect of the "little doctor," his contempt for the human race in general and the Jews in particular, and his complete cynicism were an expression of his own intellectual self-hatred and inferiority complexes, his overwhelming need to destroy everything sacred and ignite the same feelings of rage, despair and hatred in his listeners.

...During World War II relations between Hitler and Goebbels became more intimate, especially as the war situation deteriorated and the Minister of Propaganda encouraged the German people to ever greater efforts. After the Allies insisted on unconditional surrender, Goebbels turned this to advantage, convincing his audience that there was no choice except victory or destruction. In a famous speech on February 18, 1943 in the Berlin Sportpalast, Goebbels created an atmosphere of wild emotion, winning the agreement of his listeners to mobilization for total war. P

laying adroitly on German fears of the "Asiatic hordes," using his all-pervasive control of press, film and radio to maintain morale, inventing mythical "secret weapons" and impregnable fortresses in the mountains where the last stand would be made, Goebbels never lost his nerve or his fighting spirit.

It was his quick thinking and decisive action on the afternoon of July 20, 1944, when he isolated the conspirators in the War Ministry with the help of detachments of loyal troops, which saved the Nazi regime. Shortly afterwards he achieved his ambition to be warlord on the domestic front, following his appointment in July 1944 as General Plenipotentiary for Total War.

Given the widest powers to move and direct the civilian population and even to redistribute manpower within the armed forces, Goebbels imposed an austerity programme and pressed for ever greater civilian sacrifice. But with Germany already close to collapse, it was too late to accomplish anything beyond further dislocations and confusion. As the war neared its end, Goebbels, the supreme opportunist, emerged as the Fuhrer's most loyal follower, spending his last days together with his family, in the Fuhrerbunker under the Chancellery. Convinced that the Nazis had finally burnt all their bridges and increasingly fascinated by the prospect of a final apocalypse, Goebbels's last words on dismissing his associates were: "When we depart, let the earth tremble!
"
Following the Fuhrer's suicide, Goebbels disregarded Hitler's political testament, which had appointed him as Reich Chancellor, and decided to follow suit. He had his six children poisoned with a lethal injection by an SS doctor and then himself and his wife Magda shot by an SS orderly on May 1, 1945. With characteristic pathos and egomania he declared not long before his death: "We shall go down in history as the greatest statesmen of all time, or as the greatest criminal

 

[Porque77]

The New Testament teaches nothing New

If the Gospel does not say anything new, why is called the Good News? And why Jesus said "A new commandment I give unto you"?

 

[CMike]

If the Gospel does not say anything new, why is called the Good News? And why Jesus said "A new commandment I give unto you"?

He was very confused.

 

[Shermana]

If the Gospel does not say anything new, why is called the Good News? And why Jesus said "A new commandment I give unto you"?

Why don't you try reading the link I posted.

By the way, please explain which "New commandment" Jesus speaks of that is no way, shape, or form found in the Torah. Last I checked, loving each other was already there.

 

[roger1440]

If the Gospel does not say anything new, why is called the Good News? And why Jesus said "A new commandment I give unto you"?

It would be good news to those who have not heard it yet. The same would apply to a newspaper. If I read yesterday’s newspaper for the first time today, it’s still news to me.

 

[Porque77]

By the way, please explain which "New commandment" Jesus speaks of that is no way, shape, or form found in the Torah. Last I checked, loving each other was already there.

The new is what Jesus Christ says: "as I have loved you". The Gospel says so:

" A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:34)

Jesus loved us by giving his life for us to teach us the true commandments of God.

 

[metis]

The new is what Jesus Christ says: "as I have loved you". The Gospel says so:

" A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:34)

Jesus loved us by giving his life for us to teach us the true commandments of God.

So the Commandments that God gave to Moses was just some sort of joke?

 

[Brickjectivity]

So the Commandments that God gave to Moses was just some sort of joke?

Woopsi, sorry about that, Jews. Not to worry though, the new covenant with the same God is solid Porque guarantees it!

 

[CMike]

Woopsi, sorry about that, Jews. Not to worry though, the new covenant with the same God is solid Porque guarantees it!

We all know that G-D makes mistakes all the time and has to improve.

 

[CMike]

So the Commandments that God gave to Moses was just some sort of joke?

He must have lied too.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Chapter 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

 

[Porque77]

So the Commandments that God gave to Moses was just some sort of joke?

Hello, metis. The commandments that Jesus teaches us in the Gospel are the true commandments that God gave to Moses. But many Old Testament laws are laws of death, slavery, wars, sacrifices... These laws were not the Law that God had actually given to Moses.

All your confusion comes to you for having left the Law and the Gospel commandments to follow religious philosophies .

You, the Judaizers , insist and insist that all laws of death and slavery of the Old Testament are Law of God , hence your confusion, because, supported in the difficult points of Paul's letters , speak about the Law incomprehensible things that are not equal to the teaching of the Gospel.

The Gospel is clear and simple. The Gospel abolished many commandments of the Old Testament , simply because they were not commandments of God.

However, the law and the commandments that Jesus teaches us in the Gospel are easy to understand, and the Grace is in keeping the commandments of God as taught by Jesus Christ.

And for you do not confuse to others, now I put the Law and the commandments as Jesus teaches, to understand that YES we are under the law (under the Law of Christ):

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

Jesus taught the Law in precepts to a rich young man:

"Then one came and said unto him, Good Teacher , what good must I do to have eternal life? He said to him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one: God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the . commandments. He said: Which? Jesus said: Thou shalt not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honour thy father and thy mother, and , thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Young said: all these have I kept from my youth up, what lack I yet. Jesus said: If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor , and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come and follow me. Hearing the young man saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions " (Matthew 19:16-22 )

 

[Porque77]

We all know that G-D makes mistakes all the time and has to improve.

God makes no mistakes. His Law is forever.

Men are the ones who make mistakes and wrong. And men are also lying and misspell the commandments of the Law. And the men changed the law of God. The prophet Jeremiah says so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

 

[metis]

Hello, metis. The commandments that Jesus teaches us in the Gospel are the true commandments that God gave to Moses. But many Old Testament laws are laws of death, slavery, wars, sacrifices... These laws were not the Law that God had actually given to Moses.

All your confusion comes to you for having left the Law and the Gospel commandments to follow religious philosophies .

You, the Judaizers , insist and insist that all laws of death and slavery of the Old Testament are Law of God , hence your confusion, because, supported in the difficult points of Paul's letters , speak about the Law incomprehensible things that are not equal to the teaching of the Gospel.

The Gospel is clear and simple. The Gospel abolished many commandments of the Old Testament , simply because they were not commandments of God.

However, the law and the commandments that Jesus teaches us in the Gospel are easy to understand, and the Grace is in keeping the commandments of God as taught by Jesus Christ.

And for you do not confuse to others, now I put the Law and the commandments as Jesus teaches, to understand that YES we are under the law (under the Law of Christ):

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

Jesus taught the Law in precepts to a rich young man:

"Then one came and said unto him, Good Teacher , what good must I do to have eternal life? He said to him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one: God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the . commandments. He said: Which? Jesus said: Thou shalt not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honour thy father and thy mother, and , thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Young said: all these have I kept from my youth up, what lack I yet. Jesus said: If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor , and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come and follow me. Hearing the young man saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions " (Matthew 19:16-22 )

Well, here's now the problem you have: since you don't actually believe what both the Torah and Tanakh state quite clearly on the Law, then that means you really don't believe in either book. Now since it is the Torah and Tanakh that talk about the prophets and the messiah, you obviously cannot trust that either, therefore any belief that you might have that Jesus is either is null and void.

So, do you believe in the prophets and a messiah? If so, then all you are doing is cherry picking the scriptures to select out that which you want to believe, not what is actually states.

 

[metis]

God makes no mistakes. His Law is forever.

Men are the ones who make mistakes and wrong. And men are also lying and misspell the commandments of the Law. And the men changed the law of God. The prophet Jeremiah says so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

The scribes wrote more than just copies of scripture that were eventually canonized, and it appears that you are not at all familiar with the commentary system that was being used that Jesus also contributed to. Also it also appears that you are unaware of the fact that there were roughly around 2000 books that were not incorporated into our canon, and there's a good chance that Jeremiah may have either been referring to them and/or some of the commentaries.

 

[nazz]

The scribes wrote more than just copies of scripture that were eventually canonized, and it appears that you are not at all familiar with the commentary system that was being used that Jesus also contributed to. Also it also appears that you are unaware of the fact that there were roughly around 2000 books that were not incorporated into our canon, and there's a good chance that Jeremiah may have either been referring to them and/or some of the commentaries.

I don't think so. His wording is quite clear. He is not saying the people have the Law but there are other inaccurate books. He's saying the don't have an accurate version of the Law period.

 

[dantech]

Well, that's what you say. But I see that Jewish law does not match the law of the Gospel, and the Law of the Gospel is the true Law of God because Jesus Christ tells us that this is the Law and the Prophets:

Actually Jesus didn't tell you anything. His followers decided to write a book about him later on, once he was already dead.

By the way, I wrote a book about a man my grandfather's friend knew. In the book, I show that this man was actually God, because that's what he said, in the book.

 

[metis]

I don't think so. His wording is quite clear. He is not saying the people have the Law but there are other inaccurate books. He's saying the don't have an accurate version of the Law period.

But either way, what I posted still applies, especially when one negates the magnitude of what's involved. The Law is really the most central point of both Torah and Tanakh, and for one to deny its authenticity very much renders the texts inoperable as far as any reliability is concerned. Without the teachings of the Law, both become some nice stories with nothing much to become of them.

We call the first five books "Torah", meaning Law (actually "Teachings" is a better translation), for a reason. Along with the Covenant that, along with Torah,are believed to be from God, this is really what the "O.T." is about. Get rid of that, nothing much that's useful is left.

As far as "accurate version" is concerned, yes there can be some inaccuracies involved (most of us don't believe in scriptural inerrancy), but so many of the Laws are repeated through both Torah and Tanakh, although not all are. But what he's saying goes well beyond that there can be some inaccuracies.