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The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Shermana

Heretic
I think it's pretty clear what the truth is. Laws change and evolve, from generation to generation. From culture to culture. From region to region. From mind to mind. From thing to thing. Why should I wrestle you?

You shouldn't wrestle me because your argument will get demolished.

The text says the Law does NOT change. It says to not add or subtract to it.

It doesn't say "This will change because someone doesn't like some parts and humanity will "evolve".

It does say "This is for all generations." ALL generations. Without exception.

Everyone's keen to say that they have been in the House of God, and will be, perpetually. But, if Abraham learned that God would not destroy Sodom, for the sake of only 10 righteous- Why were both the House of God thrown down, and the people of God scattered from the land of their fathers? And why is it proving difficult to return? Where are our 10 righteous?

There's no point in wrestling with you because none of your arguments are remotely cohesive to the actual issue. Sparing Sodom for the sake of 10 people has absolutely nothing to do with sparing the People of the Covenant who go astray.

If incest may not become a punishment for the child, why does the child suffer abnormality? If adultery, or jealousy, may not inflict the children, why send Ishmael and Hagar away? If the Law says that children will die for their own sins, why are we inheriting alcoholism, greed, pollution, diseases, warfare, etc?

Dying for your own sins is different than being born due to sins of your past life. Reincarnation may have indeed been part and parcel to Ancient Hebrew theology and the Tanakh strongly hints at it.

Aren't we born under the Law to honor our parents?

Indeed we are.

Where are the prophecies concerning our current time? What are the boundaries of their predictions?

Why would we need any? I do believe Zechariah 14 is talking about the end of this age in the near future nonetheless. I also believe that there have been prophets since that time, and many that didn't get recorded in the Tanakh.

There are many laws which keep the sons of man breathing, thinking, and doing.

Huh?

Many of these will pass away, and be renewed.

Huh? Why would they be renewed if they pass away? What do you mean by pass away? God will revoke them? God will lie about his own laws? The only ones that may not be applicable is because of the situation. No priesthood, no priestly rituals. No Temple, no temple rituals. Simple as that. But that's as far as it goes.

Others aren't able to be broken.

But according to the Prophets, the heavens and Earth will pass.

Indeed. And according to Jesus, they will pass before a SINGLE IOTA of the Law becomes void. For some reason, Antinomians can't stand that part and try to rewrite it one way or another.

Will the prophecies of the fathers occur by our hands? Or can they go unfinished?

They will occur by God's hands.

Matthew 5:18
For, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

ALL may come to pass equates to all events that will ever happen. Basically this means that not a single letter of the Law will go void.

Isaiah 65:17
For, lo, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.[

Indeed, and even in this new heaven and Earth, the Law will stand nonetheless.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Tons of YEC have made those threads (including you) to only later give up when the full force of facts blew them away.

I gave up from the facts? No, the Atheists gave up on the facts and resorted to nonstop personal smears and distortions and changing the subject and refusing to address the issues of the study, and simply focusing on attacking the foundation, as they usually do. I did address their concerns and their misrepresentations, and then it got into a debate on Behe. If you want to start a new YEC thread, start it.

You wouldn't even know "the full force of facts" to begin with. The "Full force of facts" when the Atheists deal with the holes in their argument basically makes them go into their foxholes of "One day Science will explain it" but for some reason the "Godiddit" defense doesn't apply. And don't even ask them to even LOOK at a Creationist website, they'll just write it off simply for being that without even addressing what it says or even trying to prove the lies it claims it lies about.

In fact, if I recall, I couldn't even get you to stay on the specific subject and you merely went off on generalities each time.

Every argumetn for YEC that is possible to disprove has been disproven. (yes that is a bold statement)

And a wrong statement. You wouldn't even know what disproves what.

Please make another thread explaining why YEC isn't a crock of crap.

How about you instead? The YEC tangent had nothing to do with the Law, it had to do with "lies in Genesis", and my answer wasn't even about YEC necessarily but how both YEC and OEC are compatible explanations for Genesis.
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
On topic of the thread- Jesus claimed to have not changed any laws but he changed the general thought process of what was previously there. Though the idea of Jesus himself has been a convoluted concept that has changed over time. If he existed at all, his remaining messages have more than likely been warped. But if we assume he did exist and the Bible is an accurate portral of his character then it is safe to assume he was very different than your typical jew of that day and era.



I gave up from the facts? No, the Atheists gave up on the facts and resorted to nonstop personal smears and distortions and changing the subject and refusing to address the issues of the study, and simply focusing on attacking the foundation, as they usually do. I did address their concerns and their misrepresentations, and then it got into a debate on Behe. If you want to start a new YEC thread, start it.

And a wrong statement.

How about you instead? The YEC tangent had nothing to do with the Law, it had to do with "lies in Genesis", and my answer wasn't even about YEC necessarily but how both YEC and OEC are compatible explanations for Genesis.
Here. Knock yourself out.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/155754-challenge-issued-arguments-yec.html#post3544472
 

Shermana

Heretic
On topic of the thread- Jesus claimed to have not changed any laws but he changed the general thought process of what was previously there. Though the idea of Jesus himself has been a convoluted concept that has changed over time. If he existed at all, his remaining messages have more than likely been warped. But if we assume he did exist and the Bible is an accurate portral of his character then it is safe to assume he was very different than your typical jew of that day and era.

Well what do you know, something I actually agree with.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Well what do you know, something I actually agree with.

You would be amazed probably. We tend to agree on most things that I've seen you post. Generally we only knock heads on the actual existence of god and your stance on YEC/evolution/science. I don't respond to you if I agree with you.
 

Shermana

Heretic
You would be amazed probably. We tend to agree on most things that I've seen you post. Generally we only knock heads on the actual existence of god and your stance on YEC/evolution/science. I don't respond to you if I agree with you.

Alright, I'll take you off my s-list then and do my best to be more civil.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Seems accurate enough.. I'm concerned more with the idea of God repenting, according to Moses' word.

Relented and repented are two different words.

They also have different meanings.

No wonder I had no clue what you were talking about.

G-D doesn't repent, he may relent though.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
Don't answer to me. Answer to yourself.

Exodus 32:9-14

And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `I have seen this people, and lo, it [is] a stiff-necked people; and now, let Me alone, and My anger doth burn against them, and I consume them, and I make thee become a great nation.' And Moses appeaseth the face of Jehovah his God, and saith, `Why, O Jehovah, doth Thine anger burn against Thy people, whom Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a strong hand? why do the Egyptians speak, saying, For evil He brought them out to slay them among mountains, and to consume them from off the face of the ground? turn back from the heat of Thine anger, and repent of the evil against Thy people. `Be mindful of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, Thy servants, to whom Thou hast sworn by Thyself, and unto whom Thou speakest: I multiply your seed as stars of the heavens, and all this land, as I have said, I give to your seed, and they have inherited to the age;' and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.

Does your God repent of evil? And then complete it partially with the Levites?

Your translation is wrong as usual.

Exodus - Chapter 32 (Parshah Ki Tisa) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

13. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your very Self, and to whom You said: 'I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and all this land which I said that I would give to your seed, they shall keep it as their possession forever.' "

14. The Lord [then] reconsidered the evil He had said He would do to His people.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I think it's pretty clear what the truth is. Laws change and evolve, from generation to generation. From culture to culture. From region to region. From mind to mind. From thing to thing. Why should I wrestle you?

Everyone's keen to say that they have been in the House of God, and will be, perpetually. But, if Abraham learned that God would not destroy Sodom, for the sake of only 10 righteous- Why were both the House of God thrown down, and the people of God scattered from the land of their fathers? And why is it proving difficult to return? Where are our 10 righteous?

If incest may not become a punishment for the child, why does the child suffer abnormality? If adultery, or jealousy, may not inflict the children, why send Ishmael and Hagar away? If the Law says that children will die for their own sins, why are we inheriting alcoholism, greed, pollution, diseases, warfare, etc?

Aren't we born under the Law to honor our parents?

Where are the prophecies concerning our current time? What are the boundaries of their predictions?

There are many laws which keep the sons of man breathing, thinking, and doing. Many of these will pass away, and be renewed. Others aren't able to be broken. But according to the Prophets, the heavens and Earth will pass. Will the prophecies of the fathers occur by our hands? Or can they go unfinished?

Matthew 5:18
For, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

Isaiah 65:17
For, lo, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.
G-D disagrees with you.

G-D said not to add nor subtract from the law.

He also said that this law will be kept for all generations.

Are you calling G-D a liar?

As far as Hagar and Ishmael. They were sent away because Ishmael was a bad guy and they didn't want Ishmael's character to rub off on Issac. Also Hagar got very snotty after having Avraham's child.

You may have not noticed but Israel does exist, so apparently the jews have done something right.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You shouldn't wrestle me because your argument will get demolished.

The text says the Law does NOT change. It says to not add or subtract to it.

It doesn't say "This will change because someone doesn't like some parts and humanity will "evolve".

It does say "This is for all generations." ALL generations. Without exception.



There's no point in wrestling with you because none of your arguments are remotely cohesive to the actual issue. Sparing Sodom for the sake of 10 people has absolutely nothing to do with sparing the People of the Covenant who go astray.



Dying for your own sins is different than being born due to sins of your past life. Reincarnation may have indeed been part and parcel to Ancient Hebrew theology and the Tanakh strongly hints at it.



Indeed we are.



Why would we need any? I do believe Zechariah 14 is talking about the end of this age in the near future nonetheless. I also believe that there have been prophets since that time, and many that didn't get recorded in the Tanakh.



Huh?



Huh? Why would they be renewed if they pass away? What do you mean by pass away? God will revoke them? God will lie about his own laws? The only ones that may not be applicable is because of the situation. No priesthood, no priestly rituals. No Temple, no temple rituals. Simple as that. But that's as far as it goes.





Indeed. And according to Jesus, they will pass before a SINGLE IOTA of the Law becomes void. For some reason, Antinomians can't stand that part and try to rewrite it one way or another.



They will occur by God's hands.



ALL may come to pass equates to all events that will ever happen. Basically this means that not a single letter of the Law will go void.



Indeed, and even in this new heaven and Earth, the Law will stand nonetheless.

We can go back and forth in the text, but unless it can be paired with reality, the only thing being demolished is its credibility.

If we start with Adam, which laws were in effect? Which were added after him? Which were subtracted since the destruction of the Temple?

We can continue to say "all generations," but once you lift up your eyes to the real world, you'll notice something different. As aforementioned, the Law evolved, starting from Adam, the first generation. Even now, in the current generation, God's people are divided. The languages are divided. The interpretations are divided. The governments are divided. The laws are divided. However, some of these are shared, and some have remained perpetual.


If God only requires 10 righteous individuals to save the entirety of a city, there would be not one city on Earth destroyed. The very premise of this story is flawed. Righteousness itself is an inheritance from God, so if God wanted to raise up 10 righteous from stones, He is able, and the only One able. But instead, the people of God are not spared destruction, not even for thousands. Nor millions, as we saw plainly with the Holocaust.



You're ignoring the obvious problem with naming reincarnation as an explanation of immediate parenting and childbirth. Have you listened to your fellow Jews about the curse of Jeconiah? And what is your response to them?

So, if we are to honor our parents, how is it done? Genetically? Mentally? Socially? Spiritually? Am I able to dishonor my parents genetically? Mentally? Socially? Spiritually? If marriage results in the joining of two into one, and childbirth is a joint effort creating one flesh- do you see the reality in genetics? Do you notice that half a mother's genes, and half a father's, form one flesh? Is that one flesh able to inherit another brain? Or perform socially contrary to the laws in their flesh, called DNA? Or even develop spiritually away from the laws instituted in one House? How and why?


What identifies Zechariah 14 as relating to the current time?

What determines the color of your skin? The shape of your eye? The taste buds on your tongue? The size of your heart? What determines how each of these functions? Are they laws? Are they shared? Are they overcome in death? Are they renewed in the resurrection?


To say, "that's as far as it goes," is an understatement. The Law explicitly names the borders, the priesthood, the throne, and the Temple, etc. as all being perpetual. Yet, they are able to be undone. And they are undone. These law have been subtracted. They have not been effective for "all generations". Have they?



Not a single iota? Did you not admit the current circumstances? Which iotas were made void at the destruction of the Temple? Which are made void according to the allocation of land? Which are made void according to the priesthood? And the kings? And the children?.. Which of them haven't been made void? How is the covenant prophesied in Jeremiah unlike the previous one?

Jeremiah 31:27-34
Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have sown the house of Israel, And the house of Judah, With seed of man, and seed of beast. And it hath been, as I watched over them to pluck up, And to break down, and to throw down, And to destroy, and to afflict; So do I watch over them to build, and to plant, An affirmation of Jehovah. In those days they do not say any more: Fathers have eaten unripe fruit, And the sons' teeth are blunted. But -- each for his own iniquity doth die, Every man who is eating the unripe fruit, Blunted are his teeth. Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of Jehovah. For this [is] the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to me for a people. And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Your translation is wrong as usual.

Exodus - Chapter 32 (Parshah Ki Tisa) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

13. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your very Self, and to whom You said: 'I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and all this land which I said that I would give to your seed, they shall keep it as their possession forever.' "

14. The Lord [then] reconsidered the evil He had said He would do to His people.


The translation is completely accurate. What is the difference between reconsidering and repenting?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
G-D disagrees with you.

G-D said not to add nor subtract from the law.

He also said that this law will be kept for all generations.

Are you calling G-D a liar?

As far as Hagar and Ishmael. They were sent away because Ishmael was a bad guy and they didn't want Ishmael's character to rub off on Issac. Also Hagar got very snotty after having Avraham's child.

You may have not noticed but Israel does exist, so apparently the jews have done something right.


God is the only truth there is. If I speak, who confirms it? Who confirmed it before it entered my mind?

There are greater fathers than Abraham. There are fathers who will abandon not one of their children. Not even for the sake of the others. There are fathers who raise their offspring under one roof, and who reconcile differences between them, according to law and discipline.

Were Ishmael and Hagar of their own responsibility?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
God is the only truth there is. If I speak, who confirms it? Who confirmed it before it entered my mind?

There are greater fathers than Abraham. There are fathers who will abandon not one of their children. Not even for the sake of the others. There are fathers who raise their offspring under one roof, and who reconcile differences between them, according to law and discipline.

There is no greater father than Avraham.

Were Ishmael and Hagar of their own responsibility?
Which means what? :shrug:
 

Porque77

The Gospel is God's Law
God is the only truth there is......

.....There are fathers who raise their offspring under one roof, and who reconcile differences between them, according to law and discipline

God is the only truth there is. And Jesus Christ is the Truth.

You can not teach or correct the children with different laws. This is why Jesus Christ came to show us the true Law of God, which abolished the commandments of men in the Old Testament writings.

The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22)

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.


 

CMike

Well-Known Member
God is the only truth there is. And Jesus Christ is the Truth.

You can not teach or correct the children with different laws. This is why Jesus Christ came to show us the true Law of God, which abolished the commandments of men in the Old Testament writings.

The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22)

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.
Do you know what a broken record is?:yes: :shrug:
 

Shermana

Heretic
Do you know what a broken record is?:yes: :shrug:

Get used to it. The only thing the antinomians know how to do is repeat themselves, deny, ignore and handwave your claims, and insist that their own views are right. They're not here to debate. Or anywhere. They are preachers with an objective who have no intention to objectively discuss the scriptures or the historicity of the text, they just want to have it their way and only their way. Been dealing with them for years. They're all the same. Different forms, but the same method. Some of them have some pretty wacky, fringe ideas that are not even close to being on the rails (i.e. proque, sleepy), but it's really all the same thing.

It just amazes me how many people are out trying to steal Jesus away from his Jewish roots, and to deny the Jewish people the Law. And logic and reason is certainly not going to get in their way of that.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
God is the only truth there is. And Jesus Christ is the Truth.

You can not teach or correct the children with different laws. This is why Jesus Christ came to show us the true Law of God, which abolished the commandments of men in the Old Testament writings.

The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22)

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many Old Testament commandments commands death sentences, wars and slavery.


Did you just learn how to copy and paste this week?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Because repenting means you believe you did something wrong and you are seeking forgiveness for it.

Repenting | Define Repenting at Dictionary.com

Relenting simply means giving in.

There is a big difference.

Examples:

I might repent for a sin I did.

I might relent and give in if my wife wants to go out for dinner.

But see the minor difference between the two words isn't the issue. The similarity between them is.

The issue is whether or not an all-knowing, righteous God can change/reconsider Himself- from one will, to another, according to the lesser knowledge of His own creation.

In this case, God reconsiders the righteousness of His own word, for the righteousness of Moses' word.

The presentation is off. God knew what He would do before Moses made any realization. In actuality, both words are inaccurate.
 
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