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The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
John 8:28

27They did not understand that He was telling them about the Father. 28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactlywhat the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.”…
http://biblehub.com/john/8-28.htm

This itself is a classic proof of how the Christian people make corruption. These verses, as one could see them were not at all words of Jesus. This is only a narration of John of the incident happened. Right?

Regards
Ya know, your insistence that Christianity and Judaism are "corrupt" while your Islamic faith is somehow pure and clean is religious bigotry at its worse, plus being utterly based on nothing but sheer ignorance on the subject. Most people here do not condemn the Islamic faith, so I would suggest that their approach to this is much more intelligent and theologically honest than what your approach is. When dealing with events that took place thousands of years ago, it is almost impossible to state things found in any scripture as if they were absolute facts.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It makes perfect sense, because the prophets warn the people that the scribes changed the law of God ... and this is written by the prophets, not by the scribes.
So God told Moses some laws. Who then told the people to follow those laws. But, over time, the Scribes, all of them, copying down these laws changed them. Hmmm? So God let his Word get corrupted? So what else has been changed? Because, I don't like the Creation Story. I think those Scribes messed with that too. And, I don't like what the prophets said either. Maybe originally what they said was true, but you know those Scribes, I'm sure they changed a few things.

Thank God that the people that wrote the stories in the NT told exactly what they saw and heard. We can trust those guys and the Scribes that copied their story. That's why all copies of the NT are exactly alike, and why all Christians think and believe the same way. Hmmm? But wait, they don't. Hmmm? What was that about a house divided cannot stand? Wasn't that Jesus that said that? And his house is all divided? Hmmm? The only explanation is that Jesus never said that. Originally, he probably said that there will be a different church on every corner and every one of them will believe something different. Yeah, that's probably what he really said. Those darn Scribes, will they never quit.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Ya know, your insistence that Christianity and Judaism are "corrupt" while your Islamic faith is somehow pure and clean is religious bigotry at its worse, plus being utterly based on nothing but sheer ignorance on the subject. Most people here do not condemn the Islamic faith, so I would suggest that their approach to this is much more intelligent and theologically honest than what your approach is. When dealing with events that took place thousands of years ago, it is almost impossible to state things found in any scripture as if they were absolute facts.
I don't agree with you. Please
Regards
 

Porque77

The Gospel is God's Law
..... the issue with "the scribes" was a reference to the fact that there was no established canon during their time, so different scribes were writing all sorts of things.
You do not adjust to what the prophets say, because they say that God's law was changed by scribes. God gave the Law in the time of Moses, and after of Moses, the prophets warned us that God's law was changed.

And this coincides with what Jesus taught us, because He said He did not come to abolish the law but He abolished many precepts of the Old Testament. And He abolished those precepts because were not of God but of men.


.......... Jesus, the apostles, and Paul ended up quoting or paraphrasing many of these books, so ask yourself why they would do that if said books were so inaccurate?
The writings of the Old Testament that cited Jesus Christ and the apostles were written that did not contradict the Gospel. But you must not forget that Jesus Christ also cited precepts of the Old Testament to abolish them, and were abolished by Jesus because they were not true Law of God but precepts of men.

Jesus abolished many laws of the Old Testament, and to verify this you can read the following quotes from the Gospel: Matthew 5: 31-48, Matthew 12: 1-8, Matthew 20: 25-28, John 5: 8- 11 John 5: 16-18, John 8: 3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel.


Also, does your Bible contain these books or did you cut them out and thrown them into the garbage?
Should not throw anything away. Just scrutinize the scriptures to discover what are the commandments of God and the precepts of men. All commands that match the commands of Jesus are true commandments of God. Those who do not match, are not true commandments of God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
John 8:28

27They did not understand that He was telling them about the Father. 28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactlywhat the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.”…
http://biblehub.com/john/8-28.htm

This itself is a classic proof of how the Christian people make corruption. These verses, as one could see them were not at all words of Jesus. This is only a narration of John of the incident happened. Right?

Regards

I believe this is a classic case of Muslims trying to say there is corruption when there isn't any proof of any.

I believe the text as reported by John tells who is speaking.

Of course this is a narration of what Jesus said just as the Qu'ran is at least partially a narration by Mohammed of what the angel Gabriel said.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I believe this is a classic case of Muslims trying to say there is corruption when there isn't any proof of any.
I believe the text as reported by John tells who is speaking.
Of course this is a narration of what Jesus said just as the Qu'ran is at least partially a narration by Mohammed of what the angel Gabriel said.
Christianity people get wrong impression from the sentences in inverted commas that the sentences within the inverted commas are words of Jesus. This is not the case:

"The double quotation mark is older than the single. It derives from a marginal notation used in fifteenth-century manuscript annotations to indicate a passage of particular importance (not necessarily a quotation); the notation was placed in the outside margin of the page and was repeated alongside each line of the passage. By the middle sixteenth century, printers (notably in Basel, Switzerland) had developed a typographic form of this notation, resembling the modern closing or right-hand double quotation mark. During the seventeenth century this treatment became specific to quoted material, and it grew common, especially in Britain, to print quotation marks (now in the modern opening and closing forms) at beginning and end of the quotation as well as in the margin; the French usage (see under Specific language features below) is a survival of this. In most other languages, including English, the marginal marks dropped out of use in the last years of the eighteenth century."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

How many verses are there in Torah spoken by YHVH to Moses. Please quote from Torah for them.
Isn't the rest not from YHVH? Please
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

They were right as per the Jews:

"The LORD Spoke to Moses”
"Does God Speak?"
Baruch J. Schwartz – The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
[email protected]

Does-God-Speak.jpg

Illustration from the 1890 Holman Bible. Adapted

"Even Jews who categorically deny that God has form, is composed of matter, is visible or is subject to the constraints of time and place, cannot seem to relinquish the notion that Godspeaks precisely as described in the Bible."
http://thetorah.com/does-god-speak/
Right? Please
Regards
 

Porque77

The Gospel is God's Law
The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

How many verses are there in Torah spoken by YHVH to Moses. Please quote from Torah for them.
Isn't the rest not from YHVH? Please
Regards
In the Old Testament there are many commandments written as if those commandments would had been given by God. On many occasions the Old Testament says: "And the Lord said to Moses"... And after these words, there are commandments ordering men to kill people, and prepare wars and kill all men, women and children of the conquered peoples in wars.

That commandments were not really given by God, but were precepts of men, because God's law and God's commandments were changed by scribes, as the prophets tell us.

What God had really commanded, it is what Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel, the commandments that Jesus taught us.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
In the Old Testament there are many commandments written as if those commandments would had been given by God. On many occasions the Old Testament says: "And the Lord said to Moses"... And after these words, there are commandments ordering men to kill people, and prepare wars and kill all men, women and children of the conquered peoples in wars.

That commandments were not really given by God, but were precepts of men, because God's law and God's commandments were changed by scribes, as the prophets tell us.

What God had really commanded, it is what Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel, the commandments that Jesus taught us.

Sure, these commandments are corruptions made by the Judaism narrators/scribes/clergy.
I agree with you.
YHVH (Yahweh/Jehovah) is merciful as He says:
[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=1

Regards
 

Porque77

The Gospel is God's Law
Sure, these commandments are corruptions made by the Judaism narrators/scribes/clergy.
I agree with you.
YHVH (Yahweh/Jehovah) is merciful as He says:
[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.​

Jesus Christ is God who became man. And He preached the Gospel y taught us the commandments He had given really in Moses' time. The true teachings and the true commandments of God are the commandments of the Gospel.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Christianity people get wrong impression from the sentences in inverted commas that the sentences within the inverted commas are words of Jesus. This is not the case:

"The double quotation mark is older than the single. It derives from a marginal notation used in fifteenth-century manuscript annotations to indicate a passage of particular importance (not necessarily a quotation); the notation was placed in the outside margin of the page and was repeated alongside each line of the passage. By the middle sixteenth century, printers (notably in Basel, Switzerland) had developed a typographic form of this notation, resembling the modern closing or right-hand double quotation mark. During the seventeenth century this treatment became specific to quoted material, and it grew common, especially in Britain, to print quotation marks (now in the modern opening and closing forms) at beginning and end of the quotation as well as in the margin; the French usage (see under Specific language features below) is a survival of this. In most other languages, including English, the marginal marks dropped out of use in the last years of the eighteenth century."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark
Regards

I don't believe anyone needs marks to tell when Jesus is speaking.All we need is this: 28So Jesus said,
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
In the Old Testament there are many commandments written as if those commandments would had been given by God. On many occasions the Old Testament says: "And the Lord said to Moses"... And after these words, there are commandments ordering men to kill people, and prepare wars and kill all men, women and children of the conquered peoples in wars.

That commandments were not really given by God, but were precepts of men, because God's law and God's commandments were changed by scribes, as the prophets tell us.

What God had really commanded, it is what Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel, the commandments that Jesus taught us.

I believe that is about as bogus as it gets.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Sure, these commandments are corruptions made by the Judaism narrators/scribes/clergy.
I agree with you.
YHVH (Yahweh/Jehovah) is merciful as He says:
[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=1

Regards

I believe mercy is not a right nor is it something God does for everyone:
Ex 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Our dearest friend @RabbiO has expressed a desire vide post #467 in the thread, "Don't the Hinduism (Dharmic) people need a concise Scripture?",
that his questions "regarding Jeremiah and Isaiah" have not been answered.
Our friend should not get disappointed, so one is requested to mention page and post numbers in which those questions were asked, but no new questions, from one, please. Please mention the same and the members here would answer one's questions, no restrictions whatsoever for others to answer the same, if we know the answers. Welcome for one, please.
One asked for it. Didn't one? Please
Regards
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Our dearest friend @RabbiO has expressed a desire vide post #467 in the thread, "Don't the Hinduism (Dharmic) people need a concise Scripture?",
that his questions "regarding Jeremiah and Isaiah" have not been answered.
Our friend should not get disappointed, so one is requested to mention page and post numbers in which those questions were asked, but no new questions, from one, please. Please mention the same and the members here would answer one's questions, no restrictions whatsoever for others to answer the same, if we know the answers. Welcome for one, please.
One asked for it. Didn't one? Please
Regards

You really cannot not be this dense. I didn't say my questions have not been answered. I said that my questions to you have not been answered.

I'm not interested in the answers of somebody else. I want your answers to my questions.

I have told you that you are both arrogant and, put charitably, uninformed. If you will not answer my questions or if you cannot answer my questions then it is, as they say in sports, game over.
 

Porque77

The Gospel is God's Law
Porque77 said:
However, no one is under the laws of the Old Testament that were abolished by Jesus Christ, because many of these laws were not true Law of God..

I don't believe I have ever seen anything other than that they were laws of God. I don't believe Jesus abolished anything but fulfilled them instead. That may simply mean that a law has no value in the New Covenant but it does not invalidate the Old Covenant.
Jesus abolished many commandments of the Old Testament

The law of retaliation ("Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth") ABOLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were in the habit of applying the talionis law (law of revenge) in their judgments (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn... and so on.), And so they wrote it in the laws of the old Testament (Exodus 21:24-25). The Lord abolished this law of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" because it was a law that did not included forgiveness or mercy, then weren't God's Law, because what God likes is the mercy.


"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you...." (Matthew 5...)

The Jews, often beheaded or hanged his enemies, and not only to them, but then, as says the laws of the Old Testament, entered the conquered peoples and in many cases children and women were slaughtered... Jesus Christ abolished these Old Testament laws and commands us to love our enemies.


Other Old Testament laws abolished by Jesus Christ:

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be dead". (Leviticus 20:10)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she fornicate, dishonor his father; she shall be burnt with fire" (Leviticus 21:9)


That Is not what Jesus did with the adulterous woman in the Gospel Example:

"And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her? And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst. And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more. Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life". (Juan 8:3-12)

With this teaching, Jesus abolished the Old Testament commandments that ordered kill people for various reasons. So far we have collected some examples of Old Testament commandments that Jesus abolished, but the argument that Jesus had with the Jews because of the law, is much broader and at this discussion is devoted a large part of the Gospel. Jesus taught us the true law of God.

ABOUT THE SHABBAT'S LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

Says the Old Testament:

"And while the children of Israel in the wilderness , they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation, and put him in prison, because was not declared what should be done to him. and the Lord said to Moses: man dies, all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp. congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him, and died, as the LORD commanded Moses" (Numbers 15: 32-36)

That's not what Jesus commanded us:

"At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath, and His disciples were hungry and began to pluck heads of grain and eat. Seeing the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do on the day rest. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did when he and those with him were hungry, how he entered the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful to eat neither he nor those who were with him, but only for the priests ? or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? for I say that one greater than the temple is here. and if you had known what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, not have condemned the innocent, for the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. " (Matthew 12: 1-8)


"Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.........

And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5: 8-18)
 

Porque77

The Gospel is God's Law
Porque77 said:
It makes perfect sense, because the prophets warn the people that the scribes changed the law of God ... and this is written by the prophets, not by the scribes.
So God told Moses some laws. Who then told the people to follow those laws. But, over time, the Scribes, all of them, copying down these laws changed them. Hmmm? So God let his Word get corrupted? So what else has been changed? Because, I don't like the Creation Story. I think those Scribes messed with that too. And, I don't like what the prophets said either. Maybe originally what they said was true, but you know those Scribes, I'm sure they changed a few things.
That's what they told us the prophets, that the scribes had changed the law of God.
 
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