The Question Islam and Christianity Can't Answer

[Trailblazer]

Well I am not choosing to go to hell, that sound bad. So hey I guess I am going to heaven right?

No, you are not choosing to go to hell since belief is not a simple choice.
You either recognize the evidence for God or you do not.

That said, God expects everyone to look at he evidence that He provided, but if after looking at it they still cannot believe, God knows who sincerely tried to believe but could not, and God takes that into consideration.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

No, you are not choosing to go to hell since belief is not a simple choice.
You either recognize the evidence for God or you do not.

That said, God expects everyone to look at he evidence that He provided, but if after looking at it they still cannot believe, God knows who sincerely tried to believe but could not, and God takes that into consideration.

Great. The issue is why would not God give me the evidence I need to become convinced? Then I could choose to follow him or not with an informed decision. That is the most ethical thing to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Great. The issue is why would not God give me the evidence I need to become convinced? Then I could choose to follow him or not with an informed decision. That is the most ethical thing to do.

The answer to that question is rather simple.
God provides the SAME evidence for everyone, and some people are convinced by that evidence and some are not.
No matter what the evidence was not everyone would be convinced by it since we are all thinking with a different mind.

 

[Ebionite]

The Bible is about as clear as mud as to its meaning....

The problem is that the Christian interpretation is not consistent with the meaning that is derived from the Bible. The doctrine of the trinity is part of this problem.

Anyone can take scripture and interpret it in various ways.

Inconsistent interpretations should be rejected.

 

[metis]

The problem is that the Christian interpretation is not consistent with the meaning that is derived from the Bible. The doctrine of the trinity is part of this problem.

The concept of the Trinity is a theological construct to try and explain Jesus' and the Holy Spirit's relationship to God using the ancient Greek concept of "essence":

es·sence
[ˈes(ə)ns]
noun

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
   "conflict is the essence of drama"
   
   
   • philosophy
     a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The answer to that question is rather simple.
God provides the SAME evidence for everyone, and some people are convinced by that evidence and some are not.
No matter what the evidence was not everyone would be convinced by it since we are all thinking with a different mind.

Ok, then the evidence he provided me is insufficient for me to believe. So he will send me to hell because he did not provide the evidence I needed? All he has to do is provide the evidence I need so that I can make an informed decision about following that god. If my son needed to take some medicine to keep him alive I would give him all the evidence he needed to take the medicine if I had it. Why would I not? Why would God let anyone go to hell because they did not have enough evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem is that the Christian interpretation is not consistent with the meaning that is derived from the Bible. The doctrine of the trinity is part of this problem.

I agree that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible and it is not consistent with the true meaning that should be derived from the Bible.

Inconsistent interpretations should be rejected.

Inconsistent with what, the rest of the Bible? Are you implying that the Bible is consistent?

 

[Ebionite]

The concept of the Trinity is a theological construct to try and explain Jesus' and the Holy Spirit's relationship to God using the ancient Greek concept of "essence":

The concept relies on the ambiguity of the term "God". For example Ruach Elohim and Ruach haQodesh are different things, but they are both labelled as the "Spirit of God". The inability to differentiate between different spirits has been part of Christianity at least since the time of Pentecost.

 

[Ebionite]

I agree that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible and it is not consistent with the true meaning that should be derived from the Bible.

Inconsistent with what, the rest of the Bible? Are you implying that the Bible is consistent?

Inconsistent with their source text. The Bible is a collection of books that are not from the same source, so unless there's a way of dealing with that then there is no reason to expect that it can be used as a single source of consistent interpretations.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, then the evidence he provided me is insufficient for me to believe. So he will send me to hell because he did not provide the evidence I needed? All he has to do is provide the evidence I need so that I can make an informed decision about following that god. If my son needed to take some medicine to keep him alive I would give him all the evidence he needed to take the medicine if I had it. Why would I not? Why would God let anyone go to hell because they did not have enough evidence?

As I said before, God does not provide evidence on an individualized basis, so God does not provide the specific evidence that every person would need in order to believe.

Who said anything about going to hell? I am not a Christian.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

As I said before, God does not provide evidence on an individualized basis, so God does not provide the specific evidence that every person would need in order to believe.

Who said anything about going to hell? I am not a Christian.

So god does not care if we believe or not?

 

[Trailblazer]

So god does not care if we believe or not?

I never said that. God cares but God does not NEED anyone's belief because God is Self-Sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I never said that. God cares but God does not NEED anyone's belief because God is Self-Sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

Ok great. I am glad your god does not need me. Now I have to worry about all the other gods.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Explain why omniscience precludes free will. Explain why the existence of anybody at all that can predict the future perfectly tells us that the universe is deterministic.

It's been done repeatedly. I don't think it would be helpful to do it again.

Ask yourself how one could distinguish between a deterministic world and one where the future is not yet determined.

In pinball, a seemingly random 2-digit number ending in zero appears when the game ends, and if they are the same as the last two digits of your score, you win a free game:

"A Match Sequence is a Pinball game mechanic where, at the end of a game, the last two digits of the players' scores (which will always be a multiple of 10) is compared against a random two-digit number (also a multiple of 10). If a player's digits match the game's, a free game is awarded (indicated with the infamous knocker sound). The match bonus was first introduced in 1957, using the single digit of the scores; score inflation eventually elevated the match to the last two digits."

Notice the word random in there. I had a favorite machine that I played most days, and I discovered how to match every time. If the numbers were random, I would only match 1 time in 10 on average, but I was able to match every time. What must be true for me to be able to do that?

Then go into any court of law and tell the judge and jury that the defendant is not guilty because humans have no free will.

I didn't say that man has no free will. What I said is that if his "choices" are as predictable as the pinball machine's "choice," then no choice is actually being made and although his will may feel free to him, if it can be predicted perfectly, it's as deterministic as the algorithm the pinball machine uses and which I discovered.

What you stated is only a personal opinion.

I wrote, "Gratuitous suffering rules out a good god." The truth of that statement depends on how we define those words. Maybe good doesn't mean the same thing to you as it does to me.

Nobody can ever know if God is good or if God is all-loving.

Nobody knows anything about gods, including whether any exist, and if so, what their qualities are. But we can judge the goodness of the character described even if it is fictional. Batman was a good guy, but not the Joker.

They do choose hell.

My choice would be no. I would reject the invitation.

You recognize and admit people are free to make choices but you want to ignore that preferring instead to blame God for it.

I'm an atheist. I don't blame gods for anything. But if a god exists that has the power to prevent or reverse gratuitous suffering but can't be bothered, yes, I would blame it for that.

You would too if you didn't believe that it exists, reads your mind, and punishes thought crimes. I don't have to worry about that, so I'm free to make common sense judgments about good and bad and right and wrong. Your choice is made for you.

Suffering is usually caused by humans who refused to obey God.

Who told you that? I don't obey your god or any other gods, and I don't suffer at all beyond a little heartburn, sniffles during allergy season, a little arthritis, and the rare headache.

Right now, there is severe hail falling in the American Midwest. The animals are suffering. Is that because they refused to obey your god?

God has no right to ask you to love Him

I've never heard from a god. And how does one love a ghost he never encounters?

You will be yourself with all your quirks and memories, and you will continue to be active forever, millennia after hundreds of millennia.

You're guessing.

 

[osgart]

Yes, I have created a question that I have been pondering about for many years which no Christian or Muslim could possibly answer if God is loving. Here is my question to those Muslims and Christians that strongly believe in their faiths.

Question:

Why would an omniscient and loving God knowingly create many people he knows he will one day throw into hell after they get done living out their lives?

Argument:

So, he creates a bunch of people he already knows will go to hell before they even die. What's the point? It's like setting up someone for failure from the very beginning for your own sadistic pleasure and the thrill of it! Why believe in such a God?

Thank you.

It's preferential, and partial love based on conditions. There's nothing just, nor all loving, nor all merciful about those gods. Those gods have no clue what is just, and no clue about unconditional love.

Justice requires deserved punishment. Unconditional love demands that the just punishment of an evildoer will eventually conquer and reform the evildoers heart however long or however worse it needs take.

So a true God of life would never allow an eternal hell to burn forever and leave the evil heart in an eternal state of evil. The glory of a true God would be to never let evil remain evil forever and ever. Otherwise God is not omniscient, and God cannot do certain things, and thus is no God at all.

The idea of burning evil people in hell forever and ever without end is not only disgusting, but only a fool and a wretch would desire that to be true.

Nobody of life quality would ever be satisfied with that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok great. I am glad your god does not need me. Now I have to worry about all the other gods.

Don't worry, there is only one God.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Don't worry, there is only one God.

Ok, if you say so. Which one?

 

[Anthony H Miller]

What God are you referring to? What theology forms the basis of your accusation? There is nothing in the Christian New Testament to back up what you imply.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's preferential, and partial love based on conditions. There's nothing just, nor all loving, nor all merciful about those gods. Those gods have no clue what is just, and no clue about unconditional love.

No worries, there is no such God, except in Christian and Muslim minds. God loves everyone unconditionally.
However, does not mean that all men are equal in the sight of God. That would be unjust.

“Let no one imagine that by Our assertion that all created things are the signs of the revelation of God is meant that—God forbid—all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are equal in the sight of God.” Gleanings, p. 187

Justice requires deserved punishment. Unconditional love demands that the just punishment of an evildoer will eventually conquer and reform the evildoers heart however long or however worse it needs take.

That is correct. Justice requires deserved punishment.

So a true God of life would never allow an eternal hell to burn forever and leave the evil heart in an eternal state of evil. The glory of a true God would be to never let evil remain evil forever and ever. Otherwise God is not omniscient, and God cannot do certain things, and thus is no God at all.

The idea of burning evil people in hell forever and ever without end is not only disgusting, but only a fool and a wretch would desire that to be true.

Nobody of life quality would ever be satisfied with that.

No worries. The Christian and Muslim version of a God that sends people to hell to burn forever has been thrown overboard by the Baha'i version who is just.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, if you say so. Which one?

The one true God who revealed all the true religions.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167