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The Quran and the Son of God

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
So you have lol

History of rugby union matches between New Zealand and Wales - Wikipedia
The last loss was in 1953 so a few years before I was born!

I don’t hear of too many of your countrymen becoming Muslims. How come the change if you don’t mind me asking?

I was eight when that happened!

I'm more than happy to explain my 'change', God willing...but don't have time now. It's almost 10pm here....stuff to do before bed! All I can say now is that it was a long...and often painful, process. God willing I'll return to this very soon.

Very best regards, and God bless.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
... since you’re going off conjecture and anecdotes.

That might be an answer to my question. When you say I’m going off anecdotes, do you mean the gospel stories in Christian Bibles? Do you think that the parts of the gospel stories where G_d calls Jesus His Son, and Jesus approves of Peter calling Him the Son of G_d, are simply false?

The importance of all this to me is that I don’t think that a person has to deny anything in Christian gospel stories, before they can believe what the Quran says. I do think that they have to reject most or all of the doctrines that most Christian churches are teaching, and were teaching when the Quran was revealed. For example, the Quran says explicitly not to say “Trinity.” The whole idea of Jesus being the Son of G_d, and at the same time G_d Himself, because of Mary being impregnated by G_d, is perverted, and monstrous, and needs to be unequivocally denounced.
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
It looks to me like many people, maybe most people including most Christians and Muslims, think that the Quran denies that Jesus was the Son of G_d. I think that the Quran denounces the idea of Mary being the mother of G_d and/or the mother of G_d’s Son, but I don’t think it denies that Jesus is the Son of G_d in the way that the Bible says He is, meaning that He is king of Israel.

In the time when the Quran was revealed people might have been saying or insinuating sometimes, as they do sometimes today, that it is the way Jesus was born that makes Him the Son of G_d, and also that it makes Mary the mother of G_d. There might have been a need for G_d’s purposes at that time to denounce those ideas unequivocally, without confusing the issue by affirming that in a certain way Jesus really is the Son of G_d. That might be why the Quran says repeatedly that G_d “does not beget, nor is He begotten.” “G_d does not beget” means that Mary is not the mother of G_d’s Son, and “nor is He begotten” means that Mary is not G_d’s mother. Saying that in a certain way Jesus actually was the Son of God would have been needlessly confusing and distracting.

I think that the king of Israel was sometimes viewed figuratively as the son of G_d. The difference between Jesus as king of Israel and the other kings might be analogous in some ways to the difference between a begotten son and an adopted son. For example, the other kings were anointed by a priest, but Jesus was anointed by G_d Himself. However that may be, the way He was born does not make Mary the mother of G_d, or of His Son, and that might be the whole point of the Quran saying that G_d “does not beget, nor is He begotten.” Not to deny that Jesus was the Son of God, meaning the rightful king of Israel.

I’ll be doing some more research on all that. I would welcome any scripture references that anyone thinks I’m contradicting.
"Quran denies that Jesus was the Son of G_d."

Quran is very clear with no ambiguity that:
  1. Jesus was a messenger/prophet of G-d*.
  2. Jesus was son of Mary .**
  3. Mary was not the consort/companion/wife of G-d.~~
Regards
______________
Quran chapter:verse
**[3:46]
When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 3: Aal-e-`Imran
*[61:7]
And remember when Jesus, son of Mary, said, ‘O children of Israel, surely I am Allah’s Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me. His name will be Ahmad.’ And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, ‘This is clear enchantment.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 61: Al-Saff
~~[6:102]
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a son when He has no consort, and when He has created everything and has knowledge of all things?
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 6: Al-An`am
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
but I don’t think it denies that Jesus is the Son of G_d in the way that the Bible says He is, meaning that He is king of Israel.
Calm down.

You need to calm down a bit, I think, because that's not at all what I have said.

If you actually read what I wrote calmly, my statement is not "the Qur'an means it a certain way" but that the Bible "means it a certain way".

My position is that Jesus is not the literal son of God, and that Christians misinterpret the Biblical Scripture reading "son of God" in an overly literal way. Also in a biased way, as the Christians do not interpret "son of God" literally when it appears in the text referring to anyone who is not Jesus (see the Matthew text I just referenced).

If anything the Baha'is here are not providing any new or even non-standard interpretation of the Quran, at least none of the posts I have read here do that. If anything, what is being provided is a heterodox interpretation of the Bible to bring the Biblical text more in line with the Quranic.

If anything, pointing out that the early Christians used the phrase "son of God" non-literally only supports the Quran on this matter.

The burden of proof is for you guys to provide some substantial evidence. It gets tiresome to go back and forth with no proof your claims.

My only concern in this thread was the following:

but I don’t think it denies that Jesus is the Son of G_d in the way that the Bible says He is, meaning that He is king of Israel.

I have said it over and over the Qur'an clearly does not talk about Jesus as being an offspring of God something early Pauline Christians did.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The burden of proof is for you guys to provide some substantial evidence. It gets tiresome to go back and forth with no proof your claims.

My only concern in this thread was the following:



I have said it over and over the Qur'an clearly does not talk about Jesus as being an offspring of God something early Pauline Christians did.
"Qur'an clearly does not talk about Jesus as being an offspring of God" *

That is true, there is no doubt in it.
Regards

______________
Quran chapter:verse
[112:2]
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
[112:3]
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4]
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
[112:5]
‘And there is none like unto Him.’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 112: Al-Ikhlas
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
My only concern in this thread was the following:

but I don’t think it denies that Jesus is the Son of G_d in the way that the Bible says He is, meaning that He is king of Israel.

I have said it over and over the Qur'an clearly does not talk about Jesus as being an offspring of God something early Pauline Christians did.

If that’s what you’re concerned about, then I want to make it clear that in my view what most Christian churches say in their doctrines and creeds, about Jesus as being an offspring of G_d, is perverted, and monstrous, and needs to be denounced unequivocally, without being clouded over with my conjectures and anecdotes about the Messiah. I don’t mean that I’m abandoning those, but I’ve decided now that they distract and divert too much from the Quran’s denunciation of Trinity doctrines, so I will discuss those conjectures and anecdotes in a different context.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
No. Allow me to clarify:

‘And so for breaking their pledge, for rejecting Allāh’s revelations, for unjustly killing their prophets, for saying: “Our minds are closed” - No! Allāh has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little - and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said: “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allāh.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him - Allāh raised him up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’ (Al-Nisa: 155-158).

I’ve spent a while learning (and in some cases re-learning) what the Qur’an, and others, have to say about the crucifixion. I’ve read extracts of the tafâsîr (interpretations of the Qur’an) of Wahb Ibn Munabbih; Ṭabarî; Makkî Ibn Abi Ṭâlib; Qurṭubî; Ibn Kathîr; Suyûṭî; Ṭabâṭabâ’î ; and Jazâ’irî. All of them (apart from Ṭabâṭabâ’î) are saying that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was not crucified, but that another was made to resemble him - and to take his place. It is not possible to justify, from these verses, any notion of a substitute.

It is just as likely – although I have no way of proving this – that the words ‘though it was made to appear like that to them’ are nothing more than a reference to the belief – widespread by the time these verses were revealed – that the crucifixion of Yeshua did, in fact, take place. In short, these words reference a false belief, rather than a substitute.

I hope this helps.

Thank you! Perhaps you would clarify further? Can I be saved via the cross of Christ to pay for my sin or do I hope to be someday, maybe saved, if Allah judges my works as worthy?
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Thank you! Perhaps you would clarify further? Can I be saved via the cross of Christ to pay for my sin or do I hope to be someday, maybe saved, if Allah judges my works as worthy?

We need to consider the reported words of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām): 'It is not anyone who says to me: “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. When the day comes many will say to me: "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?" Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers!’ (Matthew 7: 21-23).

The only people who call Yeshua ‘Lord’ are the Christians, and so it is clear that these verses refer only to them; it is equally clear that some Christians are going to find themselves in a spot of bother on the Day of Judgement, in spite of what they believed; and in spite of the seemingly righteous acts they carried out in the name of their ‘Lord’.

Note the words: ‘…..the person who does the will of my Father in heaven’. This is a clear indication that belief (faith) alone is not enough. There has to be action (works)…..a doing of the Father’s will.

In short, your own religion teaches you that not all Christians are bound for Heaven.


Islam teaches that each soul is responsible for its own actions:

‘Say: “Should I seek a Lord other than Allāh, when He is the Lord of all things?” Each soul is responsible for its own actions; no soul will bear the burden of another. You will all return to your Lord in the end, and He will tell you the truth about your differences.’ (Al-An‘am: 164); and again: ‘Whoever accepts guidance does so for his own good; whoever strays does so at his own peril. No soul will bear another’s burden…..’ (Al-Isra: 15).

These verses finds their counterparts in the Bible: 'Parents may not be put to death for their children, nor children for parents, but each must be put to death for his own crime.’ (Deuteronomy 24:16); and again: 'Now, you say: "Why doesn't the son bear his father's guilt?" If the son has been law-abiding and upright, has kept all my laws and followed them, most certainly he will live. The one who has sinned is the one who must die; a son is not to bear his father's guilt, nor a father his son's guilt. The upright will be credited with his uprightness, and the wicked with his wickedness. If the wicked, however, renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and upright, he will most certainly live; he will not die. None of the crimes he committed will be remembered against him from then on; he will most certainly live because of his upright actions. Would I take pleasure in the death of the wicked - declares the Lord Yahweh - and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?’ (Ezekiel: 18: 19-23).

The message conveyed by these verses is clear enough: Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), who is Just, will never punish people for the sins of others.

St Thomas Aquinas writes: ‘It was not necessary that God should become incarnate for the restoration of human nature. For God with His omnipotent power could have restored human nature in many other ways.’ (Summa Theologica: Part Three; L.1, C.3).

Muslims believe that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) does indeed choose a different way of dealing with sin – the way of forgiveness; and that this has always been the case. There was no need for the Cross.

The Exalted delights in showing compassion and mercy towards everyone who - in all sincerity - asks for it. His mercy overrules His justice by a country mile.

Islam teaches that on the Day of Judgment all will stand before Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). Each will be given a record of their lives. Those whose book is placed in their right hand will be admitted to Paradise; and those whose book is placed in their left will not.

It is said that a record of good deeds is made straight away; but that a record of bad deeds is delayed for some hours, to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah): ‘But He will overlook the bad deeds of those who have faith, do good deeds, and believe in what has been sent down to Muhammad - the truth from their Lord - and He will put them into a good state’ (Muhammad: 2).

Not only does sincere and genuine repentance wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

Every day of their lives - many times a day - Muslims speak the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

Whenever we repent, we should follow it up with some act of kindness; or with a spot of fasting or self-denial; and we should do so solely out love for Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), and not out of fear of punishment; nor for any other reason. This will suffice.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
We need to consider the reported words of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām): 'It is not anyone who says to me: “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. When the day comes many will say to me: "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?" Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers!’ (Matthew 7: 21-23).

The only people who call Yeshua ‘Lord’ are the Christians, and so it is clear that these verses refer only to them; it is equally clear that some Christians are going to find themselves in a spot of bother on the Day of Judgement, in spite of what they believed; and in spite of the seemingly righteous acts they carried out in the name of their ‘Lord’.

Note the words: ‘…..the person who does the will of my Father in heaven’. This is a clear indication that belief (faith) alone is not enough. There has to be action (works)…..a doing of the Father’s will.

In short, your own religion teaches you that not all Christians are bound for Heaven.


Islam teaches that each soul is responsible for its own actions:

‘Say: “Should I seek a Lord other than Allāh, when He is the Lord of all things?” Each soul is responsible for its own actions; no soul will bear the burden of another. You will all return to your Lord in the end, and He will tell you the truth about your differences.’ (Al-An‘am: 164); and again: ‘Whoever accepts guidance does so for his own good; whoever strays does so at his own peril. No soul will bear another’s burden…..’ (Al-Isra: 15).

These verses finds their counterparts in the Bible: 'Parents may not be put to death for their children, nor children for parents, but each must be put to death for his own crime.’ (Deuteronomy 24:16); and again: 'Now, you say: "Why doesn't the son bear his father's guilt?" If the son has been law-abiding and upright, has kept all my laws and followed them, most certainly he will live. The one who has sinned is the one who must die; a son is not to bear his father's guilt, nor a father his son's guilt. The upright will be credited with his uprightness, and the wicked with his wickedness. If the wicked, however, renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and upright, he will most certainly live; he will not die. None of the crimes he committed will be remembered against him from then on; he will most certainly live because of his upright actions. Would I take pleasure in the death of the wicked - declares the Lord Yahweh - and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?’ (Ezekiel: 18: 19-23).

The message conveyed by these verses is clear enough: Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), who is Just, will never punish people for the sins of others.

St Thomas Aquinas writes: ‘It was not necessary that God should become incarnate for the restoration of human nature. For God with His omnipotent power could have restored human nature in many other ways.’ (Summa Theologica: Part Three; L.1, C.3).

Muslims believe that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) does indeed choose a different way of dealing with sin – the way of forgiveness; and that this has always been the case. There was no need for the Cross.

The Exalted delights in showing compassion and mercy towards everyone who - in all sincerity - asks for it. His mercy overrules His justice by a country mile.

Islam teaches that on the Day of Judgment all will stand before Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). Each will be given a record of their lives. Those whose book is placed in their right hand will be admitted to Paradise; and those whose book is placed in their left will not.

It is said that a record of good deeds is made straight away; but that a record of bad deeds is delayed for some hours, to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah): ‘But He will overlook the bad deeds of those who have faith, do good deeds, and believe in what has been sent down to Muhammad - the truth from their Lord - and He will put them into a good state’ (Muhammad: 2).

Not only does sincere and genuine repentance wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

Every day of their lives - many times a day - Muslims speak the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

Whenever we repent, we should follow it up with some act of kindness; or with a spot of fasting or self-denial; and we should do so solely out love for Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), and not out of fear of punishment; nor for any other reason. This will suffice.

I have good news! The Bible says over 150 times some variant of "trust Jesus" for eternal life, and teaches assurance. Those who sincerely trust in Jesus, not those who sincerely try their best, receive eternal life and are 100% certain of their destination. Jesus died a horrible death by torture and rose from the dead to promote this assurance. IMHO, those who trust Jesus are saved, as in past tense, as in not needing to hope to perhaps maybe be saved, should Allah choose to save later.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
I have good news!

So do I!:

‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 69).
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
I don’t hear of too many of your countrymen becoming Muslims. How come the change if you don’t mind me asking?

I was raised as a Baptist in South Wales. At the age of fifteen I became a Catholic, and I remained one for over fifty years.

In 1978 (having gained a BA in History, Philosophy and Logic) I became a professed Carmelite Tertiary, and remained one for ten years. Throughout this time, I was in regular contact with Mount Saint Bernard, a Cistercian Abbey in Leicestershire; and visited often. In pursuit of a religious vocation I spent a year with the Carmelite Friars at Hazlewood Castle in Yorkshire (now a hotel), and over a year at Mount Saint Bernard Abbey.

Throughout these years (from Tertiary onwards) I studied the usual stuff (biblical and dogmatic theology; hermeneutics; biblical criticism; canon law, and so on), and had excellent teachers. I was a Thomist, and still have a very high regard for the methodology of Aquinas; although I can no longer agree with all of his notions.

It became clear that life in a religious order was not my calling, and so I became a husband and father (as the Abbey Secretary said to me: ‘Our novitiate is a seedbed of good Catholic marriages!’). I look back at my time with the Carmelites and Cistercians with great affection. Even though I no longer share their doctrinal beliefs I admire their spirituality, and their honest convictions; and their way of life - especially the Cistercians. It has been my privilege to know many excellent Christians: paternal grandfather; priests, religious and laity. Each was an example of the best of their Faith.

About fourteen years ago my son became a Muslim. He obtained a degree in Classical Arabic; married a Moroccan (who I consider to be my third daughter); and now lives there. He is a translator of Qur’an and aḥadīth exegesis; and of other scholarly works. Muslim women retain their family name after marriage. My daughter (in-law)’s family name is Alami. She is a sharifa (a descendant of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). One of her ancestors, ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī, was the spiritual guide of Abu al-Hasan ash-Shadhili, founder of the Shadhili Tariqa. My son is a Sufi of that tariqa; and a murīd of Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

Having gained a Muslim family I made it my business to learn all I could about Islam (I’m still learning). It was during this long process that I began to question certain Christian doctrines I once held dear; and which I had defended many times over the years: ‘Original sin’; the ‘Trinity’; the ‘incarnation’; the ‘dual nature’ of Christ; the ‘Redemption’ (for example). Once acceptance of these fundamental dogmas had gone it was time to leave the Church.

Moving from Christianity to Islam was not an easy journey; but it was the right journey……at least for me.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
So do I!:

‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 69).
Well said, please.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I have good news! The Bible says over 150 times some variant of "trust Jesus" for eternal life, and teaches assurance. Those who sincerely trust in Jesus, not those who sincerely try their best, receive eternal life and are 100% certain of their destination. Jesus died a horrible death by torture and rose from the dead to promote this assurance. IMHO, those who trust Jesus are saved, as in past tense, as in not needing to hope to perhaps maybe be saved, should Allah choose to save later.
" Jesus died a horrible death by torture and rose from the dead to promote this assurance." Unquote.

Sorry, it never happened that Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the literal/physical dead, please.
He died a natural death later, at a very old age.
Clues for this are ample in Quran , Gospels, medical sources and the history*. Right, please?
Regards

____________
* Jesus In India
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So do I!:

‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 69).

Yet that contradicts what I've heard from Muslims:

1) No one, not even Muhammed, can say for certain Allah will save them from Hell

2) No Muslim can have 100% assurance now that they will be saved

3) No Muslim can tell me how many good deeds are required

The good news isn’t “you were striving to be saved by works, so trust Jesus or Allah and Muhammed his prophet, then strive for good works to be saved.”

I witness frequently to people who say they are striving to be saved by works and don’t need Jesus Christ or the Qu'ran. The good news is Jesus sets us free from striving to perfect ourselves, free from the curse of the law, sin and death.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
" Jesus died a horrible death by torture and rose from the dead to promote this assurance." Unquote.

Sorry, it never happened that Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the literal/physical dead, please.
He died a natural death later, at a very old age.
Clues for this are ample in Quran , Gospels, medical sources and the history*. Right, please?
Regards

____________
* Jesus In India

The Noble Qu'ran comes after the Bible, and in a court of law, has the burden of proof (a new contract trying to invalidate a former contract). IMHO, Jesus rose from the dead after the cross and will judge all persons, we can cling to Him for assurance.

There are no "Jesus died a natural death statement" in the four gospels, all of which mention the cross and resurrection. The other 8 writers in the NT tell the same gospel story--and the death and resurrection of the Messiah is a theme in the OT also.

The good news isn’t “you were striving to be saved by works, so trust Jesus, then strive for good works to be saved.”

I witness frequently to people who say they are striving to be saved by works and don’t need Jesus Christ. The good news is Jesus sets us free from striving to perfect ourselves, free from the curse of the law, sin and death.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Noble Qu'ran comes after the Bible, and in a court of law, has the burden of proof (a new contract trying to invalidate a former contract). IMHO, Jesus rose from the dead after the cross and will judge all persons, we can cling to Him for assurance.

There are no "Jesus died a natural death statement" in the four gospels, all of which mention the cross and resurrection. The other 8 writers in the NT tell the same gospel story--and the death and resurrection of the Messiah is a theme in the OT also.

The good news isn’t “you were striving to be saved by works, so trust Jesus, then strive for good works to be saved.”

I witness frequently to people who say they are striving to be saved by works and don’t need Jesus Christ. The good news is Jesus sets us free from striving to perfect ourselves, free from the curse of the law, sin and death.
"The Noble Qu'ran comes after the Bible, and in a court of law, has the burden of proof (a new contract trying to invalidate a former contract). IMHO, Jesus rose from the dead after the cross and will judge all persons, we can cling to Him for assurance."

Torah came before the Gospels, so will one accept what is written in Torah and accept burden of proof on one in all such creeds that are different from Torah, please?

Regards
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
"The Noble Qu'ran comes after the Bible, and in a court of law, has the burden of proof (a new contract trying to invalidate a former contract). IMHO, Jesus rose from the dead after the cross and will judge all persons, we can cling to Him for assurance."

Torah came before the Gospels, so will one accept what is written in Torah and accept burden of proof on one in all such creeds that are different from Torah, please?

Regards

Certainly. The Torah and NT agree, the Torah and Noble Qu'ran have distinct points of disagreement.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
...................

I wrote:

For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 69).

You reply that Al-Ma’ida: 69 contradicts what you’ve heard from Muslims.

Puritans claim that Al-Ma’ida: 69 has been abrogated by the following verse:

‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).

The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; thus giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone.

Islam, they argue, is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to God.

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

Consider this:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48);

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us tested; we are each of us called to do good.

‘….those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ This is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s solemn promise. It has not been abrogated, since He does not renege on His promises.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I was raised as a Baptist in South Wales. At the age of fifteen I became a Catholic, and I remained one for over fifty years.

In 1978 (having gained a BA in History, Philosophy and Logic) I became a professed Carmelite Tertiary, and remained one for ten years. Throughout this time, I was in regular contact with Mount Saint Bernard, a Cistercian Abbey in Leicestershire; and visited often. In pursuit of a religious vocation I spent a year with the Carmelite Friars at Hazlewood Castle in Yorkshire (now a hotel), and over a year at Mount Saint Bernard Abbey.

Throughout these years (from Tertiary onwards) I studied the usual stuff (biblical and dogmatic theology; hermeneutics; biblical criticism; canon law, and so on), and had excellent teachers. I was a Thomist, and still have a very high regard for the methodology of Aquinas; although I can no longer agree with all of his notions.

It became clear that life in a religious order was not my calling, and so I became a husband and father (as the Abbey Secretary said to me: ‘Our novitiate is a seedbed of good Catholic marriages!’). I look back at my time with the Carmelites and Cistercians with great affection. Even though I no longer share their doctrinal beliefs I admire their spirituality, and their honest convictions; and their way of life - especially the Cistercians. It has been my privilege to know many excellent Christians: paternal grandfather; priests, religious and laity. Each was an example of the best of their Faith.

About fourteen years ago my son became a Muslim. He obtained a degree in Classical Arabic; married a Moroccan (who I consider to be my third daughter); and now lives there. He is a translator of Qur’an and aḥadīth exegesis; and of other scholarly works. Muslim women retain their family name after marriage. My daughter (in-law)’s family name is Alami. She is a sharifa (a descendant of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). One of her ancestors, ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī, was the spiritual guide of Abu al-Hasan ash-Shadhili, founder of the Shadhili Tariqa. My son is a Sufi of that tariqa; and a murīd of Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

Having gained a Muslim family I made it my business to learn all I could about Islam (I’m still learning). It was during this long process that I began to question certain Christian doctrines I once held dear; and which I had defended many times over the years: ‘Original sin’; the ‘Trinity’; the ‘incarnation’; the ‘dual nature’ of Christ; the ‘Redemption’ (for example). Once acceptance of these fundamental dogmas had gone it was time to leave the Church.

Moving from Christianity to Islam was not an easy journey; but it was the right journey……at least for me.

That's quite a journey. Thanks for sharing. It must take a lot of courage to move from Christianity to Islam.

I went from being a Christian to becoming a Baha'i in my mid 20s but that was nearly 30 years ago. The Baha'i Faith has Islamic roots to its taken me a while begin studying Islam in more depth.

As I Baha'i I believe the Holy Qur'an to the authenticated repository of the Word of God and Muhammad to be the Messenger of God whom He claims to be.

Thanks again for sharing. It was amazing and inspiring!

Maybe if Wales can beat the All Blacks in my lifetime I could reconsider my allegiances lol.
 
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