The qur'an

[Autodidact]

The problem with you is that you don't want to see the whole picture, you choose to take what you want to take and ignore what you want to ignore. As I said, but you don't understand.

Or, I understand all too well. The fact, which you keep trying to ignore, is that a slave owned by a Muslim is still a slave, and has NO RIGHT to demand her freedom.

I said before there are many ways by which someone can be liberated. Even if he didn't agree, there are other ways and sometimes for silly reasons that for the master to expiate it, he might have to freed a slave. And, don't forget that he is being responsible of them and sometimes it seems that keeping them has no benefit, and especially if the slave is married and has children. In addition to what I have said, you keep ignoring that if the slave begets children, then she is not slave anymore and must be treated the same way someone would treat his wife.

This is incorrect. In Islam, the children of a slave are slaves. There is an exception for children that are also progeny of the master, that is, the offspring of sexual slavery. This is typical of slave systems.

So, just to be clear. Your position is that it is moral for one person to own another and have dominion over that person, to be able to buy and sell them like property?

I'm not saying it is moral.

I'm confused. I say I think it's immoral, and asked if you disagree, and you said yes. Doesn't that mean you think it's moral? Let's try again:
Slavery, moral or immoral?

During that time, it was the rule of the war that if someone was captured in war, he would either be kept as hostage or otherwise he would be sold as slave. Islam recognizes rights for them, which can be seen as moral. However, I don't expect someone who hate Islam to do so, it is just how hate sometime can be extremely blind.

Right. They have the right to eat. They have no right to be free, to leave or seek other employment. Only people who hate Islam think that slavery is immoral. People who love Islam think it's fine? Is that what you're saying?

If Islam means that slavery is moral, then sign me--and every decent person on the planet--up for the hater side. Does it?

Also, I thought the qur'an provided God's guidance and laws for all time, not just for 7th century Arabia. Do you disagree with that?

 

[SLAMH]

Outlawing slavery, like the outlawing of eating pork, might be an idea. Apparently not consuming the flesh of pigs is more important to this bizarre little god than the capturing of other human beings and holding them against their will.

Yamir you are missing one thing, the time and the surrounding.

First, it was a rule of the war. So, if you outlaw it, this will never mean that you will not be captured as slave and sold and bought against your will.

Second, the change is meaningless if it doesn't meet people's requirements in relation to their time and environment, at least it has to meet minimal requirements. And also, If you were alive during that time, what makes you sure that you will make such a step.

Third, change is a process of time and it is not a thing that can be done by magic words.

 

[Autodidact]

Yeah, capturing people without ever laying charges against them.

What are you talking about?

Sexual assault and humiliation and torture.

Are you saying that secular values require legalizing sexual assault? Or torture? Where on earth are you getting that? Can you cite some statement of global secular values that says that sexual assault and torture are moral?

AHA, I forgot they only do this with Muslims, so there is nothing wrong with it. Though, good definition to morality.

They who? Atheists? There's a global conspiracy of atheists to torture Muslims? Are you sure it isn't the other way around? Can a Muslim become an atheist without being killed? Can an atheist safely become a Muslim? Who is oppressing whom?

Not every one would be enslaved, please don't tell me that you think that Muslims would enslave all the people of the country.

They kill a bunch, take a bunch slaves, and conquer the rest and demand they live under the dominion of Islam.

But that's not the point. The point is not that they take everyone slaves, but that they take anyone. Taking slaves is wrong. But you disagree, right? You think capturing and enslaving people is morally right, correct?

Don't put words in my mouth. If you don't understand what I say, you may ask me to explain to you again.

Please explain your position in simple terms I can understand. Do you believe that capturing and enslaving people, including capturing women to use as sex slaves is moral, or immoral?

Thoughtless reasoning.

Show us, don't tell us. Here's my reasoning:
Slavery is evil.
Islam permits and promotes slavery.
Decent people oppose slavery.
Therefore decent people must oppose Islam.
What is wrong with my logic?
[That's without going into male domination, stoning rape victims, child brides, cutting little girls genitals, forcing women into purdah, killing gay people, killing apostates, etc., much less suicide bombing and the like.]

Conclusion to be made here,

First, you aren't Idealistic.

Well, is slavery right or wrong? Or is it right when you do it to me, but wrong when I do it to you? Let me know; I'm interested in building a new vegetable bed, and I could use some slave labor.

 

[Autodidact]

Ok, Mr.God. If you were alive during that time, what would you do ?

I would prohibit slavery. Like secular nations did starting in the 14th century. (and Iceland in the 11th)

 

[Autodidact]

Yamir you are missing one thing, the time and the surrounding.

So the qur'an is only for 7th century Arabs? Not for modern people?

First, it was a rule of the war. So, if you outlaw it, this will never mean that you will not be captured as slave and sold and bought against your will.

NO, it means you won't capture others and treat them this way.

Second, the change is meaningless if it doesn't meet people's requirements in relation to their time and environment, at least it has to meet minimal requirements. And also, If you were alive during that time, what makes you sure that you will make such a step.

It was impossible for people to live without slavery? Why? We do it now, and other people did it then. Why couldn't Muslims do without it?

Third, change is a process of time and it is not a thing that can be done by magic words.

So you don't think there's any value to outlawing slavery? Do you favor legalizing it? You don't think God's commandments have any effect on Muslims?

Do you think if the qur'an said, "Thou shalt not own slaves. If you have any slaves, set them all free, and do not get any others. Do not buy them, sell them or capture them," that Muslims would still have dominated the world's slave trade for 14 centuries?

 

[Autodidact]

Third, change is a process of time and it is not a thing that can be done by magic words.

If you never outlaw it, how will it ever change?

Or do you believe that God has given us further prophecy since the qur'an?

 

[SLAMH]

Or, I understand all too well. The fact, which you keep trying to ignore, is that a slave owned by a Muslim is still a slave, and has NO RIGHT to demand her freedom.

If they had no right to demand freedom, then how would you explain that they are allowed to demand for one. I think you need to reword the statement above.

This is incorrect. In Islam, the children of a slave are slaves. There is an exception for children that are also progeny of the master, that is, the offspring of sexual slavery. This is typical of slave systems.

No, what I'm missing here. Did I say something that would contradict to this for my statement incorrect.

I'm not following you here.

So, just to be clear. Your position is that it is moral for one person to own another and have dominion over that person, to be able to buy and sell them like property?
I'm confused. I say I think it's immoral, and asked if you disagree, and you said yes. Doesn't that mean you think it's moral? Let's try again:
Slavery, moral or immoral?

I think you have problem with asking questions and expressing your ideas.

I think your question was about the Islamic slavery.

No, no you try again check that you posed question here again so I don't misunderstand it.

Right. They have the right to eat. They have no right to be free, to leave or seek other employment.

The statement in red is incorrect. And, I read about one slave who was used to go to the mosque while he is in slavery to learn. And as yet, when he became free he turned to be one of famous scholars during his time.

Only people who hate Islam think that slavery is immoral. People who love Islam think it's fine? Is that what you're saying?
If Islam means that slavery is moral, then sign me--and every decent person on the planet--up for the hater side. Does it?

Ok, listen if you ask again any question that to not be related, I will not answer it. Now, you want to answer this show me how did you get this out of my comment.

Also, I thought the qur'an provided God's guidance and laws for all time, not just for 7th century Arabia. Do you disagree with that?

That is the reason that I'm asking you to check the meaning of circumstances.

 

[Autodidact]

If they had no right to demand freedom, then how would you explain that they are allowed to demand for one. I think you need to reword the statement above.

No right. None. They cannot demand their freedom. They do not have that right. They are slaves. They are property. Here are their options:
If their master allows them to keep any money they earn, they can try to earn enough to buy their freedom. This is the case in all slave systems, including that of the southern U.S.

If their master agreed to a contract to free them in exchange for a certain amount of money, and they manage to get the money somehow, the master has to keep the agreement.

That's it. If the master doesn't want to sell them to themselves, or doesn't want to make such an agreement, they have no right to demand their freedom.

No, what I'm missing here. Did I say something that would contradict to this for my statement incorrect.

You said the children of slaves are free. This is not true. Only the children that are offspring of the master (this stuff is so horrible I hate to even say it) are free. This is very common in slave systems.

I'm not following you here.

It's simple: Is slavery right or wrong?

I think you have problem with asking questions and expressing your ideas.

Most people can understand this: slavery: right or wrong?

I think your question was about the Islamic slavery.

Is slavery moral or immoral?

No, no you try again check that you posed question here again so I don't misunderstand it.

Do you think it is right for one person to own another?

Do you think it is moral to capture a woman in war and keep her as your sex slave?

Is slavery right or wrong?

What is hard about these questions? We atheists find them elementary.

The statement in red is incorrect.

Prove it.

And, I read about one slave who was used to go to the mosque while he is in slavery to learn.

Because his master permitted it, which he did not have to do. btw, was the slave a Muslim?

And as yet, when he became free he turned to be one of famous scholars during his time.

Neat what you can do when you're free. Not so neat what you can't do when you're a slave.

Ok, listen if you ask again any question that to not be related, I will not answer it. Now, you want to answer this show me how did you get this out of my comment.

Is slavery Islamic? In Islam, is it ok to capture, buy, sell and own human beings?

That is the reason that I'm asking you to check the meaning of circumstances.

I went over this. Circumstances:
(1) captured in war, or descended from someone captured in war, or bought from someone who captured you in war.
(2) not Muslim.
These are the circumstances. There are no other circumstances. Are you arguing that there are? On what basis.

In your view, is slavery moral in these circumstances? If you capture me in war, is it moral for you to keep me as your slave?

 

[SLAMH]

What are you talking about?

Capturing civilians in Iraq. Abu Ghraib prison.

Are you saying that secular values require legalizing sexual assault? Or torture? Where on earth are you getting that? Can you cite some statement of global secular values that says that sexual assault and torture are moral?

If only it is against Muslims, can you deny it ?

They who? Atheists? There's a global conspiracy of atheists to torture Muslims? Are you sure it isn't the other way around? Can a Muslim become an atheist without being killed? Can an atheist safely become a Muslim? Who is oppressing whom?

And, was I talking about atheist ?

They kill a bunch, take a bunch slaves, and conquer the rest and demand they live under the dominion of Islam.

Whatever.

But that's not the point. The point is not that they take everyone slaves, but that they take anyone. Taking slaves is wrong. But you disagree, right? You think capturing and enslaving people is morally right, correct?

Whatever.

Please explain your position in simple terms I can understand. Do you believe that capturing and enslaving people, including capturing women to use as sex slaves is moral, or immoral?

Whatever.

Show us, don't tell us. Here's my reasoning:
Slavery is evil.
Islam permits and promotes slavery.
Decent people oppose slavery.
Therefore decent people must oppose Islam.
What is wrong with my logic?
[That's without going into male domination, stoning rape victims, child brides, cutting little girls genitals, forcing women into purdah, killing gay people, killing apostates, etc., much less suicide bombing and the like.]

Whatever.

Well, is slavery right or wrong? Or is it right when you do it to me, but wrong when I do it to you? Let me know; I'm interested in building a new vegetable bed, and I could use some slave labor.

Whatever.

Things to say,

This is an argument and there is no point of it, you just want to argue.

You have to realize that you have an extreme anti-Islamic attitude, you just don't see it.

I learned from my life that there isn't any benefit of spending time with intolerant people, I have been hated not only because I'm Muslim, and I learned of it that it is not worth to invest my time and effort trying to show them that there is nothing wrong with me and there is nothing wrong with belief. I better leave them as they are because they will never change.

One advise, don't use your emotions in a discussion, try to be more sensible.

At the end, Ok

You win, say whatever you want to say I don't care. Islam is evil or Muslims are ignorant or whatever you want, whatever you wish.

 

[Autodidact]

Capturing civilians in Iraq. Abu Ghraib prison.

Are you asserting that this is somehow a result of atheist or secular laws? On what basis?

It's easy for me. I oppose those things. I think they're wrong, and I condemn them. I don't have to content with a holy book that tells me they're right, and I don't have to justify them. They're wrong. Simple for me.

Surely you don't think that Muslim countries have a better record? Quite the opposite. If you really want to bring up that red herring, I'll post the horrible record of torture and denial of human rights in most Muslim countries, which are about as relevant as this.

If only it is against Muslims, can you deny it ?

Only Muslims get raped? Only Muslims get tortured? What on earth are you talking about?

I assure you that many thousands more Muslims have been tortured by Muslim regimes than secular, if you really want to go there. I doubt that you do.

And, was I talking about atheist ?

I don't know what on earth you're talking about, or what you think the relevance is to the qur'an. Maybe you can explain it.

Whatever.

Yeah, whatever. Who cares whether they're killed, conquered or enslaved? After all, they're not Muslims, so not worth caring about, apparently.

Whatever

You have no opinion?

Whatever

Well, I think it's important, but apparently you disagree.

Whatever.

When you evade simple questions, it's obvious you can't defend your position.

Whatever

Wow, you're really rude. You asked me to make my question clear. I did as you asked, and you blow it off. Are bad manners Islamic as well?

Things to say,

This is an argument and there is no point of it, you just want to argue.

The point is to demonstrate that the qur'an is not noble, perfect, or glorious. It is a barbaric compilation of absurdity and superstition.

You have to realize that you have an extreme anti-Islamic attitude, you just don't see it.

And what's wrong with that? Apparently, slavery is Islamic. I'm extremely anti-slavery.

I learned from my life that there isn't any benefit of spending time with intolerant people, I have been hated not only because I'm Muslim, and I learned of it that it is not worth to invest my time and effort trying to show them that there is nothing wrong with me and there is nothing wrong with belief. I better leave them as they are because they will never change.

You can't defend your position, so you retreat into victimhood? I say the victims are the slaves. I have not shown any bigotry toward Muslims. I'm merely making arguments, which you cannot refute, that demonstrate that the fundamental tenet of Islam--the qur'an, is a very, very, bad book.

One advise, don't use your emotions in a discussion, try to be more sensible.

You have no argument?

Islam is evil.

My work here is done. Are you going to deconvert, or are you scared of being killed?

 

[Starsoul]

Well the folllowing is one of the Impressive things that the Seuclar school of thought is currently involved in, let Auto toot her horn about morality, everyone knows whats happening in this world regarding Slavery and Child right protection. You too can have a glimpse,

UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money!

"The report issued by the Save the Children UK organization on giving account of obscenities committed by those acting on behalf of the international community in Southern Sudan, Côte d’Ivoire, Haiti and Congo. Holding 38 focus group discussions with a total of 250 children and 90 adults, it was deduced that UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money. Astonishingly, it was even identified that children as young as six have been abused!


Thread Link,

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2341522-post1.html

 

[kai]

Well the folllowing is one of the Impressive things that the Seuclar school of thought is currently involved in

, let Auto toot her horn about morality, everyone knows whats happening in this world regarding Slavery and Child right protection. You too can have a glimpse,

UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money!

"The report issued by the Save the Children UK organization on giving account of obscenities committed by those acting on behalf of the international community in Southern Sudan, Côte d’Ivoire, Haiti and Congo. Holding 38 focus group discussions with a total of 250 children and 90 adults, it was deduced that UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money. Astonishingly, it was even identified that children as young as six have been abused!


Thread Link,

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2341522-post1.html

what are you exactly saying here?

 

[A-ManESL]

Well, they're in the qur'an, hadith and life of the prophet. Where are you getting your version from?

From the same sources. The difference apparently is that you are interpreting the verses/traditions/incidents differently. I hold that your readings are giving a flawed understanding of Islam.

Regards

 

[YmirGF]

what are you exactly saying here?

I'm guessing that it is a variation of the "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" argument. I could be wrong though.

 

[no-body]

Ok, Mr.God. If you were alive during that time, what would you do ?

Please, try to put some thought, instead of boasting about nothing.

I really dislike this line of thinking. You can just say that about any of God's actions when you want to dismiss a person "you wouldn't understand because you aren't at God's thinking level" if I had unlimited powers and supposedly infinite wisdom, I'm pretty sure I could do a lot better than the current run of things. I'm pretty sure a baboon could if it had God's supposed power level.

Anyways Yrmig pretty much has it covered if you want to bring in the whole free will nonsense. It's more important for God to talk about how to keep clean and what to eat rather than tell people not to keep others for sexual enslavement. Sick.

 

[no-body]

Well the folllowing is one of the Impressive things that the Seuclar school of thought is currently involved in, let Auto toot her horn about morality, everyone knows whats happening in this world regarding Slavery and Child right protection. You too can have a glimpse,

UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money!

"The report issued by the Save the Children UK organization on giving account of obscenities committed by those acting on behalf of the international community in Southern Sudan, Côte d’Ivoire, Haiti and Congo. Holding 38 focus group discussions with a total of 250 children and 90 adults, it was deduced that UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money. Astonishingly, it was even identified that children as young as six have been abused!


Thread Link,

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2341522-post1.html

It's almost as if we live in an imperfect world where bad things happen no matter what people believe.

 

[Autodidact]

From the same sources. The difference apparently is that you are interpreting the verses/traditions/incidents differently. I hold that your readings are giving a flawed understanding of Islam.

Regards

Are you arguing that the qur'an, hadith and life of the prophet do NOT authorize Muslims to capture, own, buy and sell slaves, including sex slaves?

 

[Autodidact]

Well the folllowing is one of the Impressive things that the Seuclar school of thought is currently involved in, let Auto toot her horn about morality, everyone knows whats happening in this world regarding Slavery and Child right protection. You too can have a glimpse,

UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money!

"The report issued by the Save the Children UK organization on giving account of obscenities committed by those acting on behalf of the international community in Southern Sudan, Côte d’Ivoire, Haiti and Congo. Holding 38 focus group discussions with a total of 250 children and 90 adults, it was deduced that UN soldiers exploit children sexually in exchange for food and money. Astonishingly, it was even identified that children as young as six have been abused!


Thread Link,

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2341522-post1.html

1. Does the U.N. charter permit and promote this kind of abuse, or seek to end it?
2. How many of the abusers are Muslim?
3. What does this have to do with the subject of this thread?

 

[England my lionheart]

Mauritania is an Islamic Republic,its Law is based on the Sharia with some Civil French Law,Sharia (the right path) has 5 categorys,obligatory, recommended, permitted, disliked, and forbidden. The primary sources of sharia law are the Qur'an.

AIUK : Mauritania: A future free from slavery

Its well known that Slavery is alive and well in Mauritania and it says in the Qur'an "what your right hand posseses" it means its ok to keep Slaves, Mauritania which has been under pressure to enforce its abolishment of Slavery which it did officially in 1981 has failed to do so ,if we consider the Qur'an the final word in all things its easy to see why they haven't,perhaps this comes under "what is permitted" in the Sharia.

 

[croak]

Mauritania is an Islamic Republic,its Law is based on the Sharia with some Civil French Law,Sharia (the right path) has 5 categorys,obligatory, recommended, permitted, disliked, and forbidden. The primary sources of sharia law are the Qur'an.

AIUK : Mauritania: A future free from slavery

Its well known that Slavery is alive and well in Mauritania and it says in the Qur'an "what your right hand posseses" it means its ok to keep Slaves, Mauritania which has been under pressure to enforce its abolishment of Slavery which it did officially in 1981 has failed to do so ,if we consider the Qur'an the final word in all things its easy to see why they haven't,perhaps this comes under "what is permitted" in the Sharia.

As stated before, capturing a free Muslim as a slave is illegal in Islam. Yet in Mauritania, this is exactly what they do. Is there any form of Sharia in which this can be considered legal? I doubt it. So why does slavery persist? Because it is deeply entrenched in Mauritanian society, and the government refuses to face this fact, instead pretending slavery no longer exists.