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The qur'an

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
I'm not confused by Islam. I'm pretty clear on that. I'm greatly confused by you and your position. Could you make it clear? Thanks. For example, is slavery right or wrong, to you?

Well my position is this (and also to YmirGF). You have yet not understood the basic idea of Islam. I will try to explain as I see it.

That what you are commonly thinking of as Islam is only the external face of how in the Prophet Muhammad's time the realities of Islam were executed. In truth Islam is but another name for an attitude of the heart. To recognize there is an Absolute Reality who ("who" for the purpose of grammar here, it is not really postulated that the Reality has to be interpreted solely as an entity) is the really Real and which underlines all actions, seemingly good or bad, is the crux of Islam. There is a hidden understanding of this Reality inside us too, only that is veiled by ignorance built up by selfish and ego centric ideas. Since the goal of Islam is recognizing this Reality, or to gain knowledge of it, so these ego-centric ideas must be washed away so that the veil can be torn. These ego-centric ideas will automatically be washed away if we let natural harmony prevail within and outside us; that is so because it is in the inbuilt nature of man to be good and be righteous. To achieve this inside and outside harmony (or as it is commonly translated as inner and outward "peace", the literal meaning of Islam) is the goal. Now as is obviously clear, depending on the people, the society, the understanding of human issues and their relative importance and the technological age one is living in, it varies as to how people achieve this peace within and outside them. You show disgust on slavery today, maybe a million years from now, the age will be such that animals and man will be treated equally and to own animals will be thought of as a similar offence as slavery and thus not conducive to inner and outer peace.

So it clear that whilst these issues themselves are dependent on the society, the attitude that harmony has to be achieved can be present in all societies. What is essential is the understanding of this attitude which is absolutely valid no matter the context or the age. The roadmap through which this attitude expresses itself is always contingent upon the period one lives in. The external actions of Prophet Muhammad, the verses of the Quran which you quote are in reference to achieving peace (inner and outer) in that period. (That they should be interpreted in context and not as absolute to be applied at all places and all times is also the opinion of the theologian scholar Fazlur Rehman, if you perchance are interested in reading about this more)

In this view Islam is no different from any other religion. Indeed I posit, that for this reason, the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) never asked true adherents of other faiths to follow his "way of life" (which we commonly term Islam) and give up their former faiths. For being true to one's faith, no matter what external name that faith has, is the going back to Islam. In fact, the word Islam or religion itself lose any meaning at that level, for all religions are one. (known as wahdat-e-deen in relevant literature).

You can relate the above with this further opinion of the Quran by Mawlana Rumi, if you so desire:

I once explained to a Koran-teacher: The Koran says, “If the sea were ink for the Words of my Lord, the sea would be spent before the Words of my Lord are spent.” Now, with fifty drams of ink one can copy the whole of this Koran. Therefore, the Koran is only a symbol of God’s knowledge and all the knowledge belonging to God.

An apothecary puts a pinch of medicine in a piece of paper. You wouldn’t say, “The whole of the apothecary’s shop is in this paper.” That would be foolishness. After all, in the time of Moses and Jesus and the other prophets, the Koran existed. God’s speech existed, but it was not in Arabic. I explained this to the Koran- teacher in this way, but I could see that it made no impression so I let him go.

Regards
 
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croak

Trickster
As much as what you said has to do with the subject at hand.
Prisons do not exist in nomadic societies. In a nomadic society, what form of punishment is there? I assume social ostracism, but what if the offender is from another tribe? If this individual who tried to kill you was allowed to go free, he might just turn back and kill you. Of course, you could try killing him. But if you don't want to risk being killed or having to kill someone, what else can you do? Perhaps taking away his weapons and confining him to your encampment while you figure out what to do might help. Maybe you'll have him do some work for you so keeping him there instead of killing him will have some use. Maybe he'll find that he really shouldn't have tried killing you in the first place and sincerely ask for forgiveness, at which you might just consider letting him go back to join his tribe.

I think that, knowing the Qur'an was revealed to both settled and nomadic communities, this has much to do with the subject at hand. I've noticed the Qur'an never mentions imprisonment — I could be wrong, though. They might have had prisons in ancient Arabia, or maybe the concept didn't exist. I think taking that into consideration might help understand some of the Qur'an; maybe not.

You think the women that Muslims captured as sex-slaves were all soldiers?!? You have some evidence for that?
Where on Earth did I say that? No really, please, tell me. You are putting words in my mouth. As civilian, I mean a person who hasn't taken part in the fighting, or at least an active role. Feeding your warring husband wouldn't count as playing an active role.

A soldier, warrior, whatever is a different story. But a civilian, no, a man, woman, or child that has not done anything to harm anyone, that I don't agree with.

Please tell me that's clear enough for you.

Yes. You believe that it is wrong.

Slavery is wrong.
The religion of the slave does not make it right.
Therefore the Islamic approach, that the religion of the slave does make it right, is incorrect.
Slavery in general is wrong, but I could think of situations where it is a lesser wrong, maybe possibly a right, I don't know.

And I explained, pages back, the possible reasoning behind that. I could think of situations where a Muslim could be enslaved, basically the one mentioned above.

If you think about it in a tribal sense, and maybe I'm going a bit far with this, Muslims in a way were a large tribe (you could say they still are, in a way). Tribal members are basically a large family. You don't enslave family members. I would think social ostracism would be very effective for the most part. But if one of your 'family members' were to try to kill you, well, maybe you could enslave him, but what's the point of keeping that person around? They share the same family, and that could threaten the tribe's unity. The most likely recourses are to either kill him or kick him out of the tribe. Without a tribe to help him survive, he might die anyway, or might be lucky enough to find another tribe. The odds are he wouldn't mention why he was kicked out of his former tribe, or the odds are he would be killed as a threat.

I'm positing possibilities.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well my position is this (and also to YmirGF). You have yet not understood the basic idea of Islam. I will try to explain as I see it.

That what you are commonly thinking of as Islam is only the external face of how in the Prophet Muhammad's time the realities of Islam were executed. In truth Islam is but another name for an attitude of the heart. To recognize there is an Absolute Reality who ("who" for the purpose of grammar here, it is not really postulated that the Reality has to be interpreted solely as an entity) is the really Real and which underlines all actions, seemingly good or bad, is the crux of Islam. There is a hidden understanding of this Reality inside us too, only that is veiled by ignorance built up by selfish and ego centric ideas. Since the goal of Islam is recognizing this Reality, or to gain knowledge of it, so these ego-centric ideas must be washed away so that the veil can be torn. These ego-centric ideas will automatically be washed away if we let natural harmony prevail within and outside us; that is so because it is in the inbuilt nature of man to be good and be righteous. To achieve this inside and outside harmony (or as it is commonly translated as inner and outward "peace", the literal meaning of Islam) is the goal. Now as is obviously clear, depending on the people, the society, the understanding of human issues and their relative importance and the technological age one is living in, it varies as to how people achieve this peace within and outside them. You show disgust on slavery today, maybe a million years from now, the age will be such that animals and man will be treated equally and to own animals will be thought of as a similar offence as slavery and thus not conducive to inner and outer peace.

So it clear that whilst these issues themselves are dependent on the society, the attitude that harmony has to be achieved can be present in all societies. What is essential is the understanding of this attitude which is absolutely valid no matter the context or the age. The roadmap through which this attitude expresses itself is always contingent upon the period one lives in. The external actions of Prophet Muhammad, the verses of the Quran which you quote are in reference to achieving peace (inner and outer) in that period. (That they should be interpreted in context and not as absolute to be applied at all places and all times is also the opinion of the theologian scholar Fazlur Rehman, if you perchance are interested in reading about this more)

In this view Islam is no different from any other religion. Indeed I posit, that for this reason, the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) never asked true adherents of other faiths to follow his "way of life" (which we commonly term Islam) and give up their former faiths. For being true to one's faith, no matter what external name that faith has, is the going back to Islam. In fact, the word Islam or religion itself lose any meaning at that level, for all religions are one. (known as wahdat-e-deen in relevant literature).

You can relate the above with this further opinion of the Quran by Mawlana Rumi, if you so desire:



Regards

So all the millions of Muslims in the world who see the "real Islam" completely differently are wrong, and you're right? You are the world's authority on the "real Islam," as opposed to the fake Islam actually practiced by millions of the world's Muslims and taught by thousands of Imams? Do you get your guidance directly from God?

Now, back to the subject of the thread. It seems that according to you, very few Muslims, including those who know the qur'an by heart, understand what Real Islam is. It seems to me to confirm what I am saying, which is that the qur'an is a collection of incomprehensible gibberish that no one, other than, apparently you and Mawlana Rumi, can understand.

Also, the prophet Muhammad didn't just ask people to give up their faith and join him, he killed them, enslaved them and conquered them for failing to do so.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Prisons do not exist in nomadic societies. In a nomadic society, what form of punishment is there? I assume social ostracism, but what if the offender is from another tribe? If this individual who tried to kill you was allowed to go free, he might just turn back and kill you. Of course, you could try killing him. But if you don't want to risk being killed or having to kill someone, what else can you do? Perhaps taking away his weapons and confining him to your encampment while you figure out what to do might help. Maybe you'll have him do some work for you so keeping him there instead of killing him will have some use. Maybe he'll find that he really shouldn't have tried killing you in the first place and sincerely ask for forgiveness, at which you might just consider letting him go back to join his tribe.
This is all irrelevant. In Islam, slavery is not a punishment for crimes. In fact, Muslims cannot be enslaved. In Islam, slavery is a condition for captives of war.

I think that, knowing the Qur'an was revealed to both settled and nomadic communities, this has much to do with the subject at hand. I've noticed the Qur'an never mentions imprisonment — I could be wrong, though. They might have had prisons in ancient Arabia, or maybe the concept didn't exist. I think taking that into consideration might help understand some of the Qur'an; maybe not.
I don't know, you may want to start a thread in Islam DIR. It certainly has no bearing on the subject of slavery.

Where on Earth did I say that? No really, please, tell me. You are putting words in my mouth. As civilian, I mean a person who hasn't taken part in the fighting, or at least an active role. Feeding your warring husband wouldn't count as playing an active role.
O.K. so we agree that Islam contemplates capturing civilians and enslaving them. So why did you raise the issue?

A soldier, warrior, whatever is a different story. But a civilian, no, a man, woman, or child that has not done anything to harm anyone, that I don't agree with.

Please tell me that's clear enough for you.
Yes, it is. You disagree with what the qur'an says about slavery. The qur'an authorizes you to capture civilians and enslave them, but you believe this is wrong.
Slavery in general is wrong, but I could think of situations where it is a lesser wrong, maybe possibly a right, I don't know.
It takes some major creativity, and is irrelevant here, since the qur'an does not limit slavery to such bizarre and hypothetical situations. The qur'an allows Muslims to capture slaves, to keep their descendants as slaves, and to buy them and their descendants as slaves. It has nothing to do with punishment, and nothing to do with creative hypos. The only factor is that the slaves must not be Muslim, and must be a captive or descendant of a captive. I understand that you believe this is wrong.

This leads to the question of how you can remain a Muslim.

If you think about it in a tribal sense, and maybe I'm going a bit far with this, Muslims in a way were a large tribe (you could say they still are, in a way). Tribal members are basically a large family. You don't enslave family members. I would think social ostracism would be very effective for the most part. But if one of your 'family members' were to try to kill you, well, maybe you could enslave him, but what's the point of keeping that person around? They share the same family, and that could threaten the tribe's unity. The most likely recourses are to either kill him or kick him out of the tribe. Without a tribe to help him survive, he might die anyway, or might be lucky enough to find another tribe. The odds are he wouldn't mention why he was kicked out of his former tribe, or the odds are he would be killed as a threat.
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Islam is a tribal morality, in which members of the tribe are treated fairly, and everyone else is less than human. This is a primitive morality, and it is time for the world, including Muslims, to move beyond it.
 
So I have a questions, If a man who doesn't accept Islam, but accepts God, He doesn't accept muslims faith nor Mohammed, his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds tremendously, he has not violated a 'sin' or 'commandment' in christian faith, judaism faith (noahic) or islam. He not a thief, liar, etc. Does he get into Paradise? I have heard that no matter what good you do, if you don't become muslim you will go to hell, i don't believe in hell personally, but I believe in paradise.

It depends on what you mean by paradise. If you mean the material existence after judgment day then:
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He (Satan) said, "My Lord, since You have willed that I go astray, I will surely entice them on earth; I will send them all astray. Except those among Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You alone." He (God) said, "This is a law that is inviolable: you have no power over my servants; you only have power over the strayers who follow you."[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][15:39-42][/FONT]

If you mean the paradise that is the gardens of eternity, or the kingdom of heaven/the Holy Spirit, then the obvious answer would be all who love God can enter.

Does that answer it? Of course there are radical religious people who say, "My religion is right, and all other are going to Hell." But that's just sad and ridiculous, isn't it.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Autodidiact these arent my views alone. Do not say that I claim millions of Muslims dont follow real Islam. I only mentioned two names: YmirGF and Autodidact. If you consider yourself a scholar of Islam, then simply speak for yourself.

Also I mentioned a name of the scholar(Fazlur Rehman) who gave this view in my post. If you really more names then know that wahdat-e-deen was explained in depth by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, and similar ideas were given by the Sufi saint Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya and Shah Waliullhah. Millions of Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent value and follow Hz Nizamuddin and hold great opinion of these scholars. Similarly millions value the opinion of Mawlana Rumi around the world. Do you suppose, that they are also fools and so are these scholars and saints and only your view of Islam is the correct one?
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Autodidiact these arent my views alone. Do not say that I claim millions of Muslims dont follow real Islam. I only mentioned two names: YmirGF and Autodidact. If you consider yourself a scholar of Islam, then simply speak for yourself.

Also I mentioned a name of the scholar(Fazlur Rehman) who gave this view in my post. If you really more names then know that wahdat-e-deen was explained in depth by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, and similar ideas were given by the Sufi saint Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya and Shah Waliullhah. Millions of Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent value and follow Hz Nizamuddin and hold great opinion of these scholars. Similarly millions value the opinion of Mawlana Rumi around the world. Do you suppose, that they are also fools and so are these scholars and saints and only your view of Islam is the correct one?

O.K., you and a few other guys see Islam this way. Meanwhile, millions upon millions of other Muslims think it's something quite different. And you're all reading the same book. Proof, if there ever was, that book is incoherent and, as a guide to what God wants of us, too vague to be useful.
 
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Proof, if there ever was, that book is incoherent and, as a guide to what God wants of us, too vague to be useful.

The Quran, as well as many other Holy Books, state God does not guide the wicked. So if the wicked aren't guided, according to the Quran and many other religions, they will just be fuel for the fire. Quran "On the day of resurrection (fire), the face of the sinners will be black, and the face of the faithful will be aglow." Bible "And he will separate the wheat from the chaff, and the chaff will be burned." I believe it's somewhere in the Hindu book, as well as in the stories of the Maya, Aztecs, Incas, and Hopis.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
O.K., you and a few other guys see Islam this way. Meanwhile, millions upon millions of other Muslims think it's something quite different. And you're all reading the same book. Proof, if there ever was, that book is incoherent and, as a guide to what God wants of us, too vague to be useful.

Its not always vague though,the following is from the Battle of the Trench or Confederates in Al Ahzab,here mass execution Slavery and land grabbing are all sanctioned conveniently by Allah.

" And Allah turned back the unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is Full of Strenght, Exalted in Might. And those of the people of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) some ye slew, and some ye made captives. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things. (Al-Ahzab: 25-27) "

In the same battle Muhammed said the following which shows Islam was spread by the sword:


Al-Baraa' ibn `Azibmamay Allah be pleased with him Allah be pleased with himreported: "We were digging the trench when we came upon a huge hard rock which could not be broken by the pickaxe. They complained of it to the Prophetpeace be upon him. When he saw it he threw aside his cloak, took the axe and said, "Bismillah." He peace be upon him struck it once and one third of it broke. He peace be upon him said,
"Allahu akbar! I have been given the keys of Syria, and by Allah, I can see its red palaces now."
Then he peace be upon him struck it a second time and another third broke. He peace be upon him said,
"Allahu akbar! I have been given the keys of Persia, and by Allah, I can see the white palace of al-Madaa'in." Then he struck it a third time and the rest of the stone broke. He peace be upon him said, "Allahu akbar! I have been given the keys of Yemen, and by Allah, I can see the gates of Sanaa from my place now."
Huyayy ibn Akhtabwent to Bani
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Well my position is this (and also to YmirGF). You have yet not understood the basic idea of Islam. I will try to explain as I see it.
It is my suggestion that you are assuming too much.

That what you are commonly thinking of as Islam is only the external face of how in the Prophet Muhammad's time the realities of Islam were executed.
Yet you would have us believe that these people reflected the perfect understanding, the very model of behavior for ALL of humanity. Supposedly they are in harmony with their world and yet reality clearly shows us that that is not the case, but the whitewashed narrative does make a pretty nice story. It is my rather bold suggestion that people in harmony, inwards and out, do not have enemies who are out to get them. Frankly, the idea that people living in harmony would be the object of oppression is laughable.

In truth Islam is but another name for an attitude of the heart. To recognize there is an Absolute Reality who
("who" for the purpose of grammar here, it is not really postulated that the Reality has to be interpreted solely as an entity)
is the really Real and which underlines all actions, seemingly good or bad, is the crux of Islam.
I understand how this type of idea could appeal to those who have little understanding of the reality being expressed. The very idea is an affront to nature. Everything changes - literally everything - and yet some pretend there is this "hidden" aspect of reality that is perfect and beyond change. To insulate their stunted thinking they give this imagined reality the designations of being Absolute and inviolate. What they don't admit, nay cannot admit, is that this vision of reality tells more about themselves than it does about any supposed reality they pretend to perceive.

There is a hidden understanding of this Reality inside us too, only that is veiled by ignorance built up by selfish and ego centric ideas. Since the goal of Islam is recognizing this Reality, or to gain knowledge of it, so these ego-centric ideas must be washed away so that the veil can be torn. These ego-centric ideas will automatically be washed away if we let natural harmony prevail within and outside us; that is so because it is in the inbuilt nature of man to be good and be righteous.
And yet, woe betide the hide of any mortal that gets in the way of Muslims feeling their oats of religious fervor. How fragile this so-called harmony is. I wouldn't call it harmony, I'd call it a well crafted facade that is easily cast aside when threatened or offended.

To achieve this inside and outside harmony (or as it is commonly translated as inner and outward "peace", the literal meaning of Islam) is the goal.
And yet, one can only wonder why so very few Muslims have ever come close to this goal. Personally, I'm inclined to blame the system rather than the weakness and foibles of the practitioners.

That said, I am getting a bit impatient with ideologies that make sport of slamming the ego of individuals, like it is some dirty second cousin to the soul. One would think that reasonable theologies would tend to nurture the ego, to make it feel less threatened, to make it feel appreciated. The idea being that a happy ego has no problem with stepping aside to let larger aspects of identity shine through. If you want peace, that is how you will find it.

Now as is obviously clear, depending on the people, the society, the understanding of human issues and their relative importance and the technological age one is living in, it varies as to how people achieve this peace within and outside them.
I would tend to disagree, but would be intrigued by a further elaboration on this point. My thinking is that the common thread here is that human animals are human animals and have always been. Attaining this alleged state of peace should, in theory, be more or less the same throughout, unless you are referring to relatively meaningless outwards signs of piety, which would obviously vary.

You show disgust on slavery today, maybe a million years from now, the age will be such that animals and man will be treated equally and to own animals will be thought of as a similar offense as slavery and thus not conducive to inner and outer peace.
"You show disgust on slavery today" tells me that you do not include yourself in that sentiment. That is VERY instructive. It is baffling to me how far you are willing to stretch credulity to make your point, A-ManESL I will give you some extra credit for a relatively well written attempt at explaining concepts that are somewhat difficult to express, though ultimately, the attempted explanation, in my judgment, fails.

So it clear that whilst these issues themselves are dependent on the society, the attitude that harmony has to be achieved can be present in all societies.
In all fairness, A-ManESL, your curious sense of harmony does not sound like something I would like to see reflected in humanity. In my view, the sooner these false assumptions about reality are consigned to the waste bin of scrapped ideals, the better for us all. Then maybe, just maybe, we can get on to what harmony is all about.

What is essential is the understanding of this attitude which is absolutely valid no matter the context or the age.
Not surprisingly, I beg to differ, A-ManESL. How can you say an assumption about reality is always valid? Is there no possibility that the idea could not be overturned some day?

The roadmap through which this attitude expresses itself is always contingent upon the period one lives in. The external actions of Prophet Muhammad, the verses of the Quran which you quote are in reference to achieving peace (inner and outer) in that period. (That they should be interpreted in context and not as absolute to be applied at all places and all times is also the opinion of the theologian scholar Fazlur Rehman, if you perchance are interested in reading about this more)
So achieving peace by engaging in slavery? Achieving peace by vanquishing anyone who does not agree with Islam?

In this view Islam is no different from any other religion. Indeed I posit, that for this reason, the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) never asked true adherents of other faiths to follow his "way of life" (which we commonly term Islam) and give up their former faiths. For being true to one's faith, no matter what external name that faith has, is the going back to Islam. In fact, the word Islam or religion itself lose any meaning at that level, for all religions are one. (known as wahdat-e-deen in relevant literature).
Wait a second. You say that Muhammad never asked "true adherents" of other faiths to follow his way of life (IE. to adopt Islam)? Why then the call to Islam? Or are you using the term "true adherents" as a weasel word descriptor to gloss over his many appeals for people to convert/revert to Islam? Obviously, from how you phrase that, you are meaning that the call was only given to those non-believers who were not true to their own faith. That is as ludicrous as it is unseemly.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I understand how this type of idea could appeal to those who have little understanding of the reality being expressed. The very idea is an affront to nature. Everything changes - literally everything - and yet some pretend there is this "hidden" aspect of reality that is perfect and beyond change.

Hi YmirGF

Is this taught in any scripture or is this a personal understanding?

...
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

Ibn Warraq

Thoughts?
Well, I'm not going to read through 50 pages of this thread.

I read an english translation of the Qur'an and basically I agree with that assessment. I found it to be highly immoral, completely uninspiring, and lacking in value. It's also highly repetitious and in my opinion, poorly written.

I do assume, however, that in the original language, it at least sounds better, poetically. (Meaning it would consist of what in my view is immoral but well-written content.) And from what I understand, it's repetitious so that people can memorize it and learn it easily.
 
In my opinion,

The Quran is a beautiful book. It lists specific details on how to enter paradise or if you prefer the term "Gardens of eternity". It lists so many great instructions and details from the past that could benefit so many people in the present if, as the Quran puts it, God would lead them to righteousness.

However, to each his own. Free will, amirite?
 

Ilisrum

Active Member
I read an english translation of the Qur'an and basically I agree with that assessment. I found it to be highly immoral, completely uninspiring, and lacking in value. It's also highly repetitious and in my opinion, poorly written.

Tarif Khalidi has a good, flowing translation. I know that Yusuf Ali's translation is the preference among English-speaking Muslims, but I found the language bland and boring.

As for being "highly immoral", I'd say its teaching are no more barbaric than the Christian and Jewish scriptures. The Quran is a product of its time, produced in a tribal society where war was commonplace. It seems somewhat unfair to assess it as "immoral" through a modern Western lens, when the text is extremely compassionate and revolutionary given the society it was produced in.
 

kai

ragamuffin
I have to admit i read a translation too and i was left with a feeling of "what was all the fuss about"
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Tarif Khalidi has a good, flowing translation. I know that Yusuf Ali's translation is the preference among English-speaking Muslims, but I found the language bland and boring.

As for being "highly immoral", I'd say its teaching are no more barbaric than the Christian and Jewish scriptures. The Quran is a product of its time, produced in a tribal society where war was commonplace. It seems somewhat unfair to assess it as "immoral" through a modern Western lens, when the text is extremely compassionate and revolutionary given the society it was produced in.

Unless you are claiming that it is anything more than the product of its time, produced in a tribal society where war was commonplace. If you are asserting that it represents God's last message to humanity, and contains God's moral imperatives for us, then there's a problem.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Tarif Khalidi has a good, flowing translation. I know that Yusuf Ali's translation is the preference among English-speaking Muslims, but I found the language bland and boring.

As for being "highly immoral", I'd say its teaching are no more barbaric than the Christian and Jewish scriptures. The Quran is a product of its time, produced in a tribal society where war was commonplace. It seems somewhat unfair to assess it as "immoral" through a modern Western lens, when the text is extremely compassionate and revolutionary given the society it was produced in.

Does mean then that its not universal and out of date
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Does mean then that its not universal and out of date
Not to be ignored is the fact that a large proportion of Muslims take the Qur'an to be the literal word of God. To me, that is a problem, in and of itself. Given that it is allegedly the last message to mankind is downright disturbing. Surely humanity has changed sufficiently to warrant a further "revelation" that is more relevant to our current thinking. Our sciences alone have debunked so much of the bygone mythology that it is almost a spiritual imperative for a new "message" to be given.
 
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