The qur'an

[England my lionheart]

Not to be ignored is the fact that a large proportion of Muslims take the Qur'an to be the literal word of God. To me, that is a problem, in and of itself. Given that it is allegedly the last message to mankind is downright disturbing. Surely humanity has changed sufficiently to warrant a further "revelation" that is more relevant to our current thinking. Our sciences alone have debunked so much of the bygone mythology that it is almost a spiritual imperative for a new "message" to be given.

You would think so,as we have seen with Slavery, you would think Allah would at least send someone with an amendment .

 

[Ilisrum]

Does mean then that its not universal and out of date

Sections of it, yes.

 

[ImmortalPhoenix]

Surely humanity has changed sufficiently to warrant a further "revelation" that is more relevant to our current thinking. Our sciences alone have debunked so much of the bygone mythology that it is almost a spiritual imperative for a new "message" to be given.

"Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Mu[FONT=&quot]ḥ[/FONT]ammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Mu[FONT=&quot]ḥ[/FONT]ammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: “I go away and come again unto you.” Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles."


The Baha'i is the most recent revelation of God, and says all that in the Koran and Bible are true.



Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

 

[England my lionheart]

Sections of it, yes.

Thats a problem then

 

[Autodidact]

"Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Mu[FONT=&quot]ḥ[/FONT]ammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Mu[FONT=&quot]ḥ[/FONT]ammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: “I go away and come again unto you.” Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles."


The Baha'i is the most recent revelation of God, and says all that in the Koran and Bible are true.



Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

If everything in the Bible and qur'an are true, how can slavery be outlawed, since they both, especially the Bible, permit it? The Bible in particular specifically authorizes it.

 

[MathewJames]

If the Torah, the Gospel, and the Qur'an are ok with slavery, maybe the people who set it up just set it up wrong. I think it takes a ton of money to get a slave and you have to treat them really good. With doweries and things like that. Real nice living quarters also. Not treat them like dirt, but like you really own them and are proud to take care of them for seven years before they are set free to go out into the world on their own. I like slavery, it could get me three slave girls that I could keep changing up too. Is that what GOD intended, sound like a cool GOD to me.

 

[Ilisrum]

Thats a problem then

I don't agree with the way modern societies use the Quran as the basis for government and law. Fortunately, theocracies have been done away with in the West. However, 1400 years ago it was a mass improvement over the tribal system already in place. And that was essentially my point. Radical Islam uses the verses that promote violence and repeal human rights in support of their ideology. It all depends on how you use it.

I like slavery, it could get me three slave girls that I could keep changing up too. Is that what GOD intended, sound like a cool GOD to me.

:foot:

 

[England my lionheart]

I don't agree with the way modern societies use the Quran as the basis for government and law. Fortunately, theocracies have been done away with in the West. However, 1400 years ago it was a mass improvement over the tribal system already in place. And that was essentially my point. Radical Islam uses the verses that promote violence and repeal human rights in support of their ideology. It all depends on how you use it.

Its very unfortunate that they do

 

[MathewJames]

:foot:

Just keeping it honest.

 

[YmirGF]

The Baha'i is the most recent revelation of God, and says all that in the Koran and Bible are true.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

I remain wholly unimpressed with the ravings of the Baha'i's.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I remain wholly unimpressed with the ravings of the Baha'i's.

I would say, if fundamentalist Baha'is weren't so authoritarian in their belief and faith in hierarchical structures, they would be some of the most intelligent peoples on the earth.

 

[Penumbra]

Tarif Khalidi has a good, flowing translation. I know that Yusuf Ali's translation is the preference among English-speaking Muslims, but I found the language bland and boring.

I've only ever read one translation in its entirety, but I've skimmed through several translations and none of the ones I looked through seemed well-written at all.

I don't know much about Arabic but the translation just doesn't seem to carry whatever poetic elements are in the original to English.

As for being "highly immoral", I'd say its teaching are no more barbaric than the Christian and Jewish scriptures. The Quran is a product of its time, produced in a tribal society where war was commonplace. It seems somewhat unfair to assess it as "immoral" through a modern Western lens, when the text is extremely compassionate and revolutionary given the society it was produced in.

I agree that it's no more barbaric than Christian or Jewish scriptures, but since I find those highly immoral too*, that doesn't change my opinion.

*Except for the Talmud, which I've never read, so do not have an opinion on.

 

[Looncall]

There are common threads everywhere. Are women not sexually harassed where you live? The fact that there is a problem in Egypt with this right now doesn't mean that women are treated like animals in general.

What you said was that Muslim women are treated like livestock in Muslim countries, which is not true in anyway.



And?



No, not really. Its only clear if you want it to be clear.

In my country, sexual harassment is a crime, not something that a woman can count on happening whenever she leaves her home.

I read an interview with an Afghan woman who explicitly said that women were treated as livestock in Afghanistan. Since Afghanistan even defines itself as muslim in its constitution, I take that as indicative.

I think that honour killings and forced marriages make the position of muslim women no better than that of livestock. The treatment of women in Saudi society likewise. Do you dispute that these actions are common in muslim societies?

 

[Badran]

In my country, sexual harassment is a crime, not something that a woman can count on happening whenever she leaves her home.

Good, so is the case here.

I read an interview with an Afghan woman who explicitly said that women were treated as livestock in Afghanistan. Since Afghanistan even defines itself as muslim in its constitution, I take that as indicative.

This is how you know that all Muslim societies treat women as livestock? Like i told you before Muslim societies are not all the same. Also, are you only relying on this interview to assume what goes on in Afghanistan? don't you think thats not enough?

I'm not saying that women are not treated horribly in Afghanistan, however i don't think you're basing your opinion on any serious look into the societies you're judging.

I think that honour killings and forced marriages make the position of muslim women no better than that of livestock. The treatment of women in Saudi society likewise.

I agree. However the existence of such cases in any country doesn't mean that in that country women are necessarily treated as livestock in general. In some cases that is the case, but not all of them.

Do you dispute that these actions are common in muslim societies?

Yeah, not disputing that they don't exist, however like i said i disagree with your collective judgment which doesn't consider the difference between different societies. And i disagree of course with you're other conclusion that Islam is responsible for all of this.

 

[Autodidact]

Good, so is the case here.



This is how you know that all Muslim societies treat women as livestock? Like i told you before Muslim societies are not all the same. Also, are you only relying on this interview to assume what goes on in Afghanistan? don't you think thats not enough?

I'm not saying that women are not treated horribly in Afghanistan, however i don't think you're basing your opinion on any serious look into the societies you're judging.



I agree. However the existence of such cases in any country doesn't mean that in that country women are necessarily treated as livestock in general. In some cases that is the case, but not all of them.



Yeah, not disputing that they don't exist, however like i said i disagree with your collective judgment which doesn't consider the difference between different societies. And i disagree of course with you're other conclusion that Islam is responsible for all of this.

Of course, the fact that women in Muslim countries are treated as second-class citizens has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. It's just a coincidence.

 

[ellenjanuary]

"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

Ibn Warraq

Thoughts?

You don't like it, is my thought. I like it... we don't agree. A woeful scourge.

 

[ellenjanuary]

I remain wholly unimpressed with the ravings of the Baha'i's.

Go Ymir! It's your birthday! It's your birthday!

Sorry... that wasn't helpful... it's the Tecate...

 

[BruceDLimber]

I remain wholly unimpressed with the ravings of the Baha'i's.

Not a problem!

We're not all that impressed with YOU.

 

[sirat]

salaam, peace be with you friends,

Please pardon my interruption. I saw one thing and thought I might add a modest amount to the observation.

"You would think so,as we have seen with Slavery, you would think Allah would at least send someone with an amendment."

As it happened, the prophet The Bab outlawed slavery. Soon after the world convulsed and the U.S. and England did the same. Baha'u'llah repeated and reinforced the rule.

That is indeed how it happened. Your thinking is correct.

may peace be upon you
sirat

 

[LittleSidhe]

Doesn't matter what it is, if you're looking to find something bad in anything, you will.