The qur'an

[croak]

Not publically, and not in a Muslim country. That's why Mr. Ibn Warraq [thanks croak for the education] uses a pseudonym. He is afraid of being murdered. You do admit that happens to critics of Islam?

I suppose it could happen. Then again, there are plenty of people that have used their real names. And with the Internet, Muslims themselves have felt emboldened, and share opinions that might be seen as unorthodox or heretical.

A few examples of Muslims in Muslim (at least Muslim-majority) countries can be found in, of all places, an article on FaithFreedom.org: What is the Qur’an? | Faithfreedom.org I don't think the author would have missed a chance to mention if any of those listed were murdered, so I think it's safe to say that simply being a critic does not mean you'll be murdered.

Assuming revealing your name automatically meant a death wish, you practically have a hit list right here: List of critics of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Autodidact]

I don't think you really understood what i was saying. Of course Allah can make prohibitions, the question is whether that was the best way to do it or not. Due to the condition of that custom, and its deep roots in society and it being a world wide accepted thing, it was best to take this root. Then later on based on the constraints put on the subject, and the gradual elevation of the status of slaves and their role in society, it would be solved through time.

How would that work, when the quran contains the only and last revelation of God, who made no mention of this long term plan. btw, when was this long term plan going to go into effect?

I thought Muslims were supposed to submit to Allah? If Allah commanded it, would they not submit? Like not eating pork or drinking alcohol?

 

[Peace]

I can only read the qur'an in English, because that is the only language I read. The majority of the world's Muslims do not speak even modern Arabic, and a tiny number can read Classical Arabic, which the qur'an is written in. Classical Arabic, like other semitic languages, is written with consonants only, and the form of a word, or sometimes which word, depends on implying the vowels. For this reason alone, the text is ambiguous. Most people who rely on it memorize verses in a language they do not themselves understand.

You made me really laugh, do you really mean what you say? Please next time search and ask before coming with such false information.
Add this to your information, all literate Arabs can read the Quran and understand it. Arab countries speak Arabic dialects among themselves but we study, teach and read the classical Arabic. We use classical Arabic in schools, administrations...etc. We don't find difficulties whatever in reading the Quran because too simply it is a language that we still use. Evenconverts who are non- Arabs when they study Arabic they become able to understand the language of the Quran. Arabic, though it is an ancient language, is different from other ancient languages who simply die and are not used in everyday life any more.
Sometimes there are different interpretation of the text because of the context. One should go back and search for the context and the situation what the verses were revealed.

 

[Autodidact]

I suppose it could happen. Then again, there are plenty of people that have used their real names. And with the Internet, Muslims themselves have felt emboldened, and share opinions that might be seen as unorthodox or heretical.

A few examples of Muslims in Muslim (at least Muslim-majority) countries can be found in, of all places, an article on FaithFreedom.org: What is the Qur’an? | Faithfreedom.org I don't think the author would have missed a chance to mention if any of those listed were murdered, so I think it's safe to say that simply being a critic does not mean you'll be murdered.

Assuming revealing your name automatically meant a death wish, you practically have a hit list right here: List of critics of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One with whom I am familiar is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She lives with constant, round-the-clock bodyguards, and has sacrificed her personal freedom out of fear of being murdered by a Muslim.

I doubt that her experience is unique or irrational. Similarly, Mr. Ibn Warraq publishes under a psuedonym for the same reason.

Taslima Nasrin: On August 9, 2007, Nasrin was in Hyderabad to present the Telugu translation of one of her novels, Shodh, when she was attacked by a mob of violent intruders, led by legislators from the All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen, a Muslim political party.[18][19] A week later, on August 17, Muslim leaders in Kolkata revived an old fatwa against her, urging her to leave the country and offering an unlimited amount of money to anybody who would kill her...

[wiki]

Recent threats on a web site targeted both [Magdi] Allam and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. “They are two dead men walking… just like Falcone…” one threat said, comparing both men to an anti-Mafia judge who was assassinated in a 1992 bombing.

Those are the only ones I googled. I suspect this is the case for every former Muslim with the temerity to criticize Islam.

 

[England my lionheart]

Would you have preferred that the Prophet divorce five men and leave them penniless? How brash.
[/color]

 

[Autodidact]

You made me really laugh, do you really mean what you say? Please next time search and ask before coming with such false information.
Add this to your information, all literate Arabs can read the Quran and understand it.

Most Muslims are not Arab, and most Arabs are not literate.

 

[Autodidact]

I suppose it could happen.

It could happen, and has happened.

Theo Van Gogh
Salman Rushdie
Sherry Rehman

AMSTERDAM, 28/02/08 - The terrorist network Al-Qaeda has given orders for the assassination of MP Geert Wilders, newspaper De Telegraaf reports. The Party for Freedom (PVV) leader must be 'slaughtered', the orders say, because he has insulted Islam and the prophet Mohammed.

Mocking anything in the Qur'an or the Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad is apostasy and therefore punishable by death.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fatwa 2196, Part No. 2, Page 42[/FONT]

 

[croak]

One with whom I am familiar is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She lives with constant, round-the-clock bodyguards, and has sacrificed her personal freedom out of fear of being murdered by a Muslim.

I doubt that her experience is unique or irrational. Similarly, Mr. Ibn Warraq publishes under a psuedonym for the same reason.

[wiki]


Those are the only ones I googled. I suspect this is the case for every former Muslim with the temerity to criticize Islam.

I'm not calling it unique or irrational. I'm just pointing out that many people have not been murdered for their views. That's all. It seems, though, that you need a high-profile leader to say something first. Without their backing, I don't think these individuals would have to fear for their lives.

In the end, though, I think it's a sad state of affairs that people have to fear for their lives for criticizing Islam, but then again, people have to fear for their lives for all sorts of reasons.

 

[croak]

It could happen, and has happened.

Theo Van Gogh
Salman Rushdie
Sherry Rehman

AMSTERDAM, 28/02/08 - The terrorist network Al-Qaeda has given orders for the assassination of MP Geert Wilders, newspaper De Telegraaf reports. The Party for Freedom (PVV) leader must be 'slaughtered', the orders say, because he has insulted Islam and the prophet Mohammed.

Mocking anything in the Qur'an or the Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad is apostasy and therefore punishable by death.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fatwa 2196, Part No. 2, Page 42[/FONT]

I should have mentioned that I was talking about death threats by individuals, not by organizations or prominent leaders. In the latter case, you have a right to be fearful.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not calling it unique or irrational. I'm just pointing out that many people have not been murdered for their views. That's all. It seems, though, that you need a high-profile leader to say something first. Without their backing, I don't think these individuals would have to fear for their lives.

In the end, though, I think it's a sad state of affairs that people have to fear for their lives for criticizing Islam, but then again, people have to fear for their lives for all sorts of reasons.

Oh well, since many people have NOT been murdered, I guess it's not a problem. Of course, they do have to live with round-the-clock bodygaurds and constant fear, but as long as they haven't actually been murdered yet...

 

[croak]

Oh well, since many people have NOT been murdered, I guess it's not a problem. Of course, they do have to live with round-the-clock bodygaurds and constant fear, but as long as they haven't actually been murdered yet...

Oh, of course, absolutely no problem! Fear, shmear, who cares?

If you took that as my view, I wonder how on Earth I managed that. I never said it wasn't a problem. All I was trying to say is that not everyone who speaks out is murdered. That's it. Read into it what you will. Should people have to live in fear? No. Do I think that, so long as they aren't murdered, everything will be hunky-dory? No.

Really, I don't know what else to say about the subject. Must I tell the world that I despise the idea of killing others for their beliefs, or even simply mocking and insulting them?

Why am I even still typing? Why is this even a topic of conversation?

People should not be killed for their beliefs. Done.

I really shouldn't debate after midnight. My thought processes get wonky.

 

[TJ73]

In reference to Ayaan Ali:
Name someone who loudly and harshly criticizes anything who doesn't have death threats? Heck, even simple celebrities get death threats for their beliefs. Who called for the death of these people? Someone as seeped in misguided,confuted, culturally muddled "Islam" as those she escaped from? Do you really think this is an Islamic issue and not a repeatedly observed social issue?

 

[Autodidact]

In reference to Ayaan Ali:
Name someone who loudly and harshly criticizes anything who doesn't have death threats? Heck, even simple celebrities get death threats for their beliefs.

About half the American public. I can criticize anything or anyone I want, as much as I want, but the only time I hesitate to give my name is if the subject is Islam.

Who called for the death of these people?

Muslims.

Someone as seeped in misguided,confuted, culturally muddled "Islam" as those she escaped from? Do you really think this is an Islamic issue and not a repeatedly observed social issue?

Yes.

I can criticize Christianity all I want, using my name. I can criticize the Pope, the President, the Dalai Lama, anyone I want. But as soon as I criticize Islam, my life is in danger. That is reality in today's world. Did you read the fatwa's I cited from the Saudi religious authority? It explicitly calls for the death of anyone who leaves, criticizes or mocks Islam. Yes, it's an Islamic issue.

Why is it that Muslims always hide behind the "Johnny does it too" defense? It's pitiful. Most people learn to leave that behind by Middle School.

 

[TJ73]

Ask Rush Limbaugh, ask the secret service, ask poor Congresswoman Giffords, ask Sarah and Bristol Pahlin, ask the Pope Mobile, ask MLK. If you are worried about Muslims please don't stop there. Ask some of the hood rats in my neighborhood if you can get away with saying anything you want. Crazy isn't a Muslim institution. You're really afraid to speak out publicly against Islam? You live here in the US? Don't be afraid, get paid, that's what people do these days Hate for pay.

 

[TJ73]

Oh and PS, don't forget to ask Muslims that are targeted for death, right here in America, not for speaking but for BEING!

 

[croak]

About half the American public. I can criticize anything or anyone I want, as much as I want, but the only time I hesitate to give my name is if the subject is Islam. Muslims. Yes.

I can criticize Christianity all I want, using my name. I can criticize the Pope, the President, the Dalai Lama, anyone I want. But as soon as I criticize Islam, my life is in danger. That is reality in today's world. Did you read the fatwa's I cited from the Saudi religious authority? It explicitly calls for the death of anyone who leaves, criticizes or mocks Islam. Yes, it's an Islamic issue.

Why is it that Muslims always hide behind the "Johnny does it too" defense? It's pitiful. Most people learn to leave that behind by Middle School.

The reality is, some Muslims call for people to be murdered, and some of practically every other group do as well.

How about those fellas who bomb abortion clinics? If you went around saying how abortion was a choice, and you happened to be a doctor who did those abortions... eh, you'd get death threats, at the very least.

Army of God - Don't they seem benign.

The Knighthood of Sir Elton John should be immediately revoked for his sacrilegious and blasphemous statements against the Lord Jesus Christ. Elton John lied and blasphemed God by saying Jesus was a homosexual. Elton John should be immediately be charged with a hate crime against Christianity and confined to the deepest dungeon to pay for his crime against God and man.

Source: Sodomite Elton John publicly mocked and blasphemed our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm also pretty sure that you could say whatever you want about Christianity to some rather devout gang members, and they wouldn't dare to lay a finger on you. Right? After all, they aren't Muslim. They're just decent people.

Christian Lunatics Issue Death Threats Over a Cracker | PEEK | AlterNet
Hindu death threats over ‘blasphemous’ art| UCANEWS
Professors in Colorado Receive Death Threats for Teaching Evolution | Wired Science | Wired.com

Yup, just decent people.

Man, it's late. Nearly 5 AM; I should head to bed. I really shouldn't be typing.

To conclude: Muslims aren't hiding behind the "everyone does it too" argument. It's just a fact; everyone does do it, too. Beyond condemning the actions of other Muslim terrorists and the like, what do you want Muslims here to do?

 

[Badran]

How would that work, when the quran contains the only and last revelation of God, who made no mention of this long term plan. btw, when was this long term plan going to go into effect?

When Muslims had complied to the new rules. And kept at complying them for a long time, which they didn't.

I thought Muslims were supposed to submit to Allah? If Allah commanded it, would they not submit? Like not eating pork or drinking alcohol?

They should have. But not all of them did. Just like some Muslims today still drink alcohol.

 

[Gaura Priya]

They should have. But not all of them did. Just like some Muslims today still drink alcohol.

I always thought that the Qur'an never explicitly said 'no' to alcohol, but suggested that although there is some good in alcohol, the cons outweigh the pros.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Except Islam condemned slavery and paved a means to its abolition.

The verses from the Qur'an quoted in this thread refer to marrying those "your right hands possess" and "the bondwomen you possess whom Allah gave you as war booty", and that was at a time when slavery was very common. The sources quoted by Croak and Audodidact also talk about the history of slavery in Islam. So can you provide evidence that Islam "condemned slavery"? Or did Islam merely manage and restrict slavery?

If you want to see what a condemnation of slavery looks like, read the autobiography of Frederick Douglass. The difference between an eloquent and persuasive condemnation of slavery written in the midst of a slave society, vs. the parts of the Qur'an I have seen so far, is enormous.

I'm not saying Islam didn't improve the institution of slavery, I'm just saying this does falls well short of an all-encompassing, perfect philosophy, i.m.o. If we're going to talk about the Qur'an as a historical document, written by humans and constrained by the circumstances in which it was written, then sure, we can talk about how it improved the human condition. But if we're going to talk about the Qur'an as a timeless document with unsurpassed wisdom .... then the standards have to be higher than "well it paved the way for change ..." okay, lots of documents in history did that. And many did more than that. I.M.O.

Would you have preferred that the Prophet divorce five men and leave them penniless? How brash.

I don't understand ... can you clarify?

 

[Autodidact]

Ask Rush Limbaugh, ask the secret service, ask poor Congresswoman Giffords, ask Sarah and Bristol Pahlin, ask the Pope Mobile, ask MLK. If you are worried about Muslims please don't stop there. Ask some of the hood rats in my neighborhood if you can get away with saying anything you want. Crazy isn't a Muslim institution. You're really afraid to speak out publicly against Islam? You live here in the US? Don't be afraid, get paid, that's what people do these days Hate for pay.

So all the Muslim clerics and organizations that call for killing apostates and critics are crazy? The Saudi Organization is crazy? O.K. Why are such a high percentage of Muslims crazy?

Do you see Sarah Palin using a pseudonym?