The qur'an

[Autodidact]

The reality is, some Muslims call for people to be murdered, and some of practically every other group do as well.

How about those fellas who bomb abortion clinics? If you went around saying how abortion was a choice, and you happened to be a doctor who did those abortions... eh, you'd get death threats, at the very least.

Army of God - Don't they seem benign.

Source: Sodomite Elton John publicly mocked and blasphemed our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm also pretty sure that you could say whatever you want about Christianity to some rather devout gang members, and they wouldn't dare to lay a finger on you. Right? After all, they aren't Muslim. They're just decent people.

Christian Lunatics Issue Death Threats Over a Cracker | PEEK | AlterNet
Hindu death threats over ‘blasphemous’ art| UCANEWS
Professors in Colorado Receive Death Threats for Teaching Evolution | Wired Science | Wired.com

Yup, just decent people.

Man, it's late. Nearly 5 AM; I should head to bed. I really shouldn't be typing.

To conclude: Muslims aren't hiding behind the "everyone does it too" argument. It's just a fact; everyone does do it, too. Beyond condemning the actions of other Muslim terrorists and the like, what do you want Muslims here to do?

Recently, a Pakistani governor was killed, not even for criticizing Islam, but merely for suggesting that others should have the right to do so, as I am doing here. Was it the work of an aberrant lunatic?

Amid the swirling chaos on a frigid Sunday afternoon, everyone at the makeshift tent unanimously agrees: Mumtaz Qadri, the 26-year-old security officer who killed Punjab's governor, Salman Taseer, is a hero.
"It was the perfect action," says Malik Khan as he flashes me a thumbs up, "any Muslim would do the same thing." The bundled-up patrons clustered around us nod in agreement. And they aren't the only ones; I've been hearing the same refrain all afternoon as I traversed the bustling market...The response has been so overwhelming that authorities furtively moved up Qadri's hearing to Monday to pre-empt more gatherings of adoring crowds. (It was originally scheduled for Tuesday.) This weekend in Karachi, 50,000 people came out in support of the blasphemy law Qadri was supposedly defending when he shot Taseer more than 20 times in the back.

Slate.com

Recently, an aberrant lunatic shot a U.S. member of Congress and many other people. How many Americans support him? <.01%, wouldn't you agree? He's not a hero, he's a despised, pitied, crazy person.

the unseemly public reaction has laid bare an ugly seam of Pakistani society, suggesting a country in the grip of a rash Islamic fervour.Last Wednesday 500 clerics from the mainstream Barelvi sect, who had previously criticised the Taliban, forbade their followers from offering condolences to Taseer's family. Another religious group has planned a rally in Karachi tomorrow to protest against law reform. Posters for the rally singled out Sherry Rehman, a brave ruling party MP who shared Taseer's outspoken views, for criticism. One preacher in the city has already dubbed her Wajib ul Qatil by one preacher – "deserving of death". Fears that she could follow Taseer hardly seem overstated.

Are you saying that tens of thousands of Pakistanis, including hundreds of imams, are all crazy? If so, their psychiatric diagnosis is called Islam.

 

[Caladan]

Yes, it is so interesting. That's why I'm delving into it now. It provides a fascinating insight into the tribal mind. I see Islam as a living relic of the pre-modern mindset. Judaism is fascinating, but the Tanakh was canonized so long ago, it's hard to relate or figure out what really happened there. Islam is the last instance of an Abrahamic religion arising in a tribal context, so to me it's like a portal back in time.

OTOH, what is really damaging to the world, especially to Muslims, is the view that this primitive, rudimentary text is a guide to life and governance. That is why Muslim countries are for the most part the poorest, most violent, oppressed and miserable in the world.

I don't think you follow me.
The Qur'an is the holy text of a society which has spontaneously exploded through military and diplomatic conquest in some of the largest parts of the world. from Africa to the Far east. it has changed the political and demographic landscape of the world from end to end in a single century.
the people who have embraced this tribal text, were not simple minded people. if you take a look at Islamic history, you will be shocked to discover the feats that Islamic societies have accomplished at the same periods historians talk about a Europe which lived in the Dark Ages, and about a xenophobic European Christendom which alienates and burns its subjects.
I can tell you that in various locations of Islamic Caliphates, Jews prospered in certain periods alongside Muslims.
Do not get me wrong, I do not believe these cases were Utopia. they were socially and politically secured in the highest cultural interests. and it would be hard to use them as a case study of all relations between Jews and Muslims.

 

[ppɐʇɹnɯ]

Are you saying that tens of thousands of Pakistanis, including hundreds of imams, are all crazy? If so, their psychiatric diagnosis is called Islam.

I agree, the problem is not Muslims but Islam itself. People who kill in the name of Islam are going upon a literal reading of the Quran, not extrapolations. Acting upon the verse that says "kill them where they stand".

Islam's constant contradictions create a sort of behavioristic obsession affliction or a recurrent delerium worsened by social pressures. Unfortunately, there isn’t a lunatic asylum anywhere in the world able to cope with a billion of these unfortunate peoples. What to do? What to do?

 

[YmirGF]

I don't think that flies.

It doesn't really matter what you think, the facts from the FBI say otherwise.


Table 4 - Hate Crime Statistics 2009

 

[Badran]

So Allah was which, not all-powerful, or not all-knowing, or not all-merciful. Because apparently, if His goal was to outlaw slavery at some point, He hasn't gotten around to it yet, at least not for Muslims.

Its really simple. Its not a plan that was supposed to happen and didn't, it was rules amongst other rules that Allah has made for us to follow, whether we follow them or not, is entirely up for us. In this case, like many others, we didn't follow them. Not all of us.

For those of us who live in the civilized, secular world, of course it is illegal.

Which is completely irrelevant. I wonder what makes you need to resort to these kind of comments.

Where does it say that in the great, the noble, the perfect qur'an?

I mean, I know that slavery is bad, and you know it's bad, but somehow Muhammad, who owned many slaves, did not know it's bad.

Again, a very simple idea. Due to the status and the conditions back then, outlawing slavery and declaring its freedom was not the best rout if not utterly impossible. So, instead, various other things were done to make there a gradual elevation of their status.

Of course? Why of course? So basically this is just Badran talking, not the qur'an at all. You're just guessing at what you think Allah's plan was? But if we read His message to us in the qur'an, it's nowhere in there. I don't know. Call me crazy. I would think if Allah wanted to outlaw slavery, He would have said, "You may not own slaves."

Lets hope this is clear by now.

So you disagree with SLAMH, who says It is not the case that is really hard to translate Qur'an correctly? Which is it? It it hard to translate correctly, or not? Inquiring infidels want to know.

Please, seriously. You're kidding right? In the terrifying case that you're actually not kidding, and are really struggling with this, not all Muslims think alike.

So God wants to tell us how to follow His commandments, and the best way to do that is make it really hard for people to know what the heck they are? If this makes sense to you, you may be Muslim.

I didn't say that the Quran is beyond understanding when translated, or that its even extremely hard to. I said the translation takes away from it. From its beauty, and its hard to translate 100% accurately. The Quran had to be revealed in such a way because it was revealed to people who were extremely proficient in their language. However, you can still understand what the Quran says in English, and of course you can always learn Arabic.

OTOH, what is really damaging to the world, especially to Muslims, is the view that this primitive, rudimentary text is a guide to life and governance. That is why Muslim countries are for the most part the poorest, most violent, oppressed and miserable in the world.

So let me get this straight, it turned out that you actually don't know what you're talking about, you've never actually read the Quran, yet you still don't refrain from making claims about it from a point of ignorance?

Are you saying that tens of thousands of Pakistanis, including hundreds of imams, are all crazy? If so, their psychiatric diagnosis is called Islam.

So its fair to say that this is just another thread attacking Islam right? If not, whats up with the irrelevant points against Muslims and Islam?

 

[YmirGF]

Its really simple. Its not a plan that was supposed to happen and didn't, it was rules amongst other rules that Allah has made for us to follow, whether we follow them or not, is entirely up for us. In this case, like many others, we didn't follow them. Not all of us.

I might buy into this if it were not for the Muslim belief in predestination.

 

[SLAMH]

Then why did you ask me. o.k., go to any thread in this forum re: evolution and see what I do. Then come back and apologize for slandering me. Thank you.

Well, let me see............

Is this a question of some kind, or an argument?

Do you want to learn what they actually say? If not, please stop spreading misinformation.

Basically this how you establish whether your opponent knows anything about the TOE.

But, hey.....

this far interesting,

You clearly do not understand ToE. Do you want to learn, or do you prefer to remain confused and ignorant? Most creationists choose the ignorant and confused option, in order to maintain their anti-evolution beliefs.

To phrase your lie in the form of a question, it would be "What is the evidence that supports ToE?"

ammm, come on the guy was just asking you, and you call it a lie.

Would you like me to answer that question or do you prefer to remain ignorant so you can spread disinformation like this?

I guess my guess was correct.

So are you ready to apologize for spreading disinformation about the Qura'n ?.

So the translations of the qur'an we have were not done by experts?

I doubt that you really understand what you read, go back and show me how my comment says that the translation of Qur'an were not done by experts.

 

[croak]

OTOH, what is really damaging to the world, especially to Muslims, is the view that this primitive, rudimentary text is a guide to life and governance. That is why Muslim countries are for the most part the poorest, most violent, oppressed and miserable in the world.

So, what you are saying is, believing the Qur'an is a guide will make your country poor, violent, oppressed, and miserable?

That's an interesting conclusion. Of course, that's throwing all other possible causes out the window, which in my personal opinion hold a lot more weight. Going by what Caladan said: if this book is so bad that it can make societies terrible places to live in, why was there an Islamic Golden Age? I suppose they ignored the Qur'an for six centuries, if your suggestion has any merit.

Recently, a Pakistani governor was killed, not even for criticizing Islam, but merely for suggesting that others should have the right to do so, as I am doing here. Was it the work of an aberrant lunatic?

Aberrant? No, I wouldn't say, especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Recently, an aberrant lunatic shot a U.S. member of Congress and many other people. How many Americans support him? <.01%, wouldn't you agree? He's not a hero, he's a despised, pitied, crazy person.

Now that's an aberrant lunatic. But the comparison doesn't fly. Off the top of my head, I think about the Cold War. Or Japanese internment camps. Or Guantanamo Bay. During the Cold War era, how many people do you think supported communism? And what happened to those people when others found out?

Like I said, the media plays a large role, as well as what respected leaders say, as well as the economic conditions, culture, and other factors of life in a society.

Are you saying that tens of thousands of Pakistanis, including hundreds of imams, are all crazy? If so, their psychiatric diagnosis is called Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoring_Honor_rally#cite_note-religion-6Well, if Glenn Beck can get over two million people to listen to him, I suppose anything's possible. Considering there are over 6 billion people alive today, it doesn't seem so surprising.


Am I comparing Beck to a person calling for people to be killed? No, but I'm sure not all of those two million have benign intentions. That's just the way things are.


Humans tend to be crazy, in this crazy raven's opinion. I don't think you can just label it Islam, though.

 

[croak]

It doesn't really matter what you think, the facts from the FBI say otherwise.


Table 4 - Hate Crime Statistics 2009

Those are just reported hate crimes. As we all know, not everyone reports a crime.

But I'm not going to fight over statistics. Would you disagree that hating Muslims has grown more acceptable?

 

[Sahar]

So are you ready to apologize for spreading disinformation about the Qura'n ?.

I think this thread is a troll from the start.

 

[TJ73]

Yes, there is certainly bigotry against Muslims in the U.S. today.



Hey, I'm a Jewish Atheist Lesbian mother of three, I can relate!

I'm not attacking Muslims as a group. I am, however, attacking the religion of Islam, which I think is a very, very bad thing, that harms millions of people, most of them Muslim.

I can assure you Islam does not harm millions of people, Auto. It really just does not. For the average person of faith, believing in God is personal comfort, feeling a connection to a Creator, a social paradigm, a bit of culture. I personally look to my actions and consider God's position in my life. I live in relative saftey to practice my faith in my home and in group worship, I feel just fine and right with the world. I can not begin to imagine how someone would feel where things are different.
People want to be right. They tend to be aggressively persistent in pursuing righteousness. They may look to their scriptures to justify actions they feel compelled toward. But an objective look at the Quran does not support this. Yes, intelligent people without any faith or God directed guidance are perfectly capable of showing morality and restraint. But most people in the world aren't necessarily intelligent and willing. The guidance may help them learn and achieve restraint.
I converted to Islam. I chose this way of life for the mirroring of my own organic ideas of God. I live in the safety of a politcly stable country with a strong constitution garunteeing my freedom to be Muslim. I have a very high tolerance level. But I don't know what I would do had I been raised outside of this paradigm.
People will use whatever they can to justify their position,right? Since many people have some faith identification and consider God absolute that is the logical place to seek your defense. You can't readily find a suitable defense when applying all the qualifiers and principals, heck just cut n paste. It is not Islam that creates this issue and it is not a condition exclusive to Muslims.
Tell me, Auto, are you ever concerned that some ignorrant individual will place any mistakes your children make on your sexual identity. it happens. I had a dude friend and his Mom ( lesbian, and a terrific person too) was blamed by her own family for her sons criminal issues. He was primarily raised by his Dad and the other children were exemplery. No one considered his social/financial status, that he was a child of divorce. They hated her gayness and so THAT MUST be the reason for her child's suffering. That's crap and blaming the Islam.... that's crap too.:yes::sorry1:.
I don't expect you to read the Quran. But could you just consider that having not done so and not having faith, that perhaps it is better than what propagandists say it is, even if you won't agree it is as noble as what Muslims say it is.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Again, a very simple idea. Due to the status and the conditions back then, outlawing slavery and declaring its freedom was not the best rout if not utterly impossible. So, instead, various other things were done to make there a gradual elevation of their status.

It sounds like there is room for some interpretation, to determine which parts of the Qur'an only apply to the status and conditions back then, as a route to something better, and which parts strictly apply for all time. I thought the Qur'an was supposed to be "the end of the story", a perfect and unchangeable guide to every aspect of life for all time, but your approach seems more reasonable to me.

 

[SLAMH]

I agree, the problem is not Muslims but Islam itself. People who kill in the name of Islam are going upon a literal reading of the Quran, not extrapolations. Acting upon the verse that says "kill them where they stand".

Islam's constant contradictions create a sort of behavioristic obsession affliction or a recurrent delerium worsened by social pressures. Unfortunately, there isn’t a lunatic asylum anywhere in the world able to cope with a billion of these unfortunate peoples. What to do? What to do?

what do you even know about Qur'an? , what do you even know about Muslims?

what do know about Islam ?

I'm really surprised how ignorance makes one able to draw absurd conclusion without knowing anything. Good for you.

 

[YmirGF]

Would you disagree that hating Muslims has grown more acceptable?

Absolutely not. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but that is not my experience in my neck of the woods in Canada. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[ppɐʇɹnɯ]

I think this thread is a troll from the start.

So all non-Muslims who don't agree with the Quran are trolls?

what do you even know about Qur'an? , what do you even know about Muslims?

I know about the Quran and I know about Muslims. I used to read the Quran every day and I am an ex-Muslim.

I can assure you Islam does not harm millions of people, Auto.

Yet Islam does harm people like Auto every day. The hanging of gays in Iran. The state-sanctioned murder of single women/single mothers. The execution of atheists for apostasy. The over 16,000 terror attacks mostly directed at the Jewish people since 2001.

It doesn't really matter what you think, the facts from the FBI say otherwise.


Table 4 - Hate Crime Statistics 2009

To put it more in perspective, there are 38.1 million African-Americans in America. Which means that 2724 hate attacks occurred per 1 million African-Americans. Meaning 1 in 367 African Americans suffered a hate attack. There are 5 million Jews in the US, which means that 192.8 hate attacks occurred per 1 million Jewish-Americans.
By contrast there are 7 million Muslims, and a measly little 128 supposed hate attacks (which were probably mostly over-exaggerated). It doesn't even compare. Islamophobia is a myth. It's like saying that people have "murdero-phobia".

 

[TJ73]

I agree, the problem is not Muslims but Islam itself. People who kill in the name of Islam are going upon a literal reading of the Quran, not extrapolations. Acting upon the verse that says "kill them where they stand".

Islam's constant contradictions create a sort of behavioristic obsession affliction or a recurrent delerium worsened by social pressures. Unfortunately, there isn’t a lunatic asylum anywhere in the world able to cope with a billion of these unfortunate peoples. What to do? What to do?

People who kill in the name of Islam: They do the opposite of what you've stated. The ignore the qualifiers, conditions and all other available recourse prescribed.

Now let me prepare my flame retardent hijab... ok.. here goes... I'm one of the 1.5 billion Muslims. I am no lunatic and have no desrie to kill anyone, not do I feel even slightly compelled by my faith to do so. Am I unfortunate. Should I be confined to an asylum should one be manifest to contain us all?:sarcastic

 

[SLAMH]

I know about the Quran and I know about Muslims. I used to read the Quran every day and I am an ex-Muslim.

Doesn't answer my question ?, my question is What you know not What you have known or used to know.

you made claim so you have to support it.

 

[ppɐʇɹnɯ]

People who kill in the name of Islam: They do the opposite of what you've stated. The ignore the qualifiers, conditions and all other available recourse prescribed.

Now let me prepare my flame retardent hijab... ok.. here goes... I'm one of the 1.5 billion Muslims. I am no lunatic and have no desrie to kill anyone, not do I feel even slightly compelled by my faith to do so. Am I unfortunate. Should I be confined to an asylum should one be manifest to contain us all?:sarcastic

Because you don't understand Islam correctly. If you did, you wouldn't be Muslim.

The Muslims who live peacefully among their non-Muslim neighbors are actually "bad Muslims" (bad in the sense that they're not practicing their religion properly). Because the Quran says to kill "them" (meaning any non-Muslim) where you find them. Either that or they are lying about it taqiyya style.

There's a joke about Muslims among us who've left the faith: A Muslim is someone who practices Islam. An ex-Muslim is someone who understands Islam.

 

[TJ73]

Yet Islam does harm people like Auto every day. The hanging of gays in Iran. The state-sanctioned murder of single women/single mothers. The execution of atheists for apostasy. The over 16,000 terror attacks mostly directed at the Jewish people since 2001.

So wouldn't you blame Iran. Iran harms people. They may hold up a Quran and claim it makes it just but we both know that's not just. I am curious and respectfully ask are you from a Muslim country? Were you" born into" Islam?

 

[croak]

Absolutely not. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but that is not my experience in my neck of the woods in Canada. Quite the opposite, actually.

British Columbia is one of the more multicultural provinces of Canada, so that could have to do with your experience. Then again, I do think Canada as a whole is more accepting than the States.